Tank Corps - crews and numbering

[Chris_Baker]

I have seen some extraordinary examples of research of Tank Corps men and am hoping that someone out there can help me out with this one.

306400 Pte Charles E. Nevis, Tank Corps. Anyone come across him before? If not, is there anything that can be deduced from his number? Charles survived the war and that's about all I know.

[Verrinder Ian]

Chris,

I've checked the Tank Corps Book of Honour and the bad news is that he didn't win a medal and the good news (for him) is that he wasn't killed either. Unfortunately, that leaves us without a lead.

I've have been doing a bit of delving into the numbering, although my digging has not born any decent fruit yet. Most of my attention has been towards the 75*** series of numbers, which all come from men who transferred in to the HB MGC around January 1917. At the Battle of Cambrai I have seen quite a few 7****, 9*****, 10**** and 200*** men. My assumption is that the number series changed to denote either a new draft or a particular time period (during 1917 for these numbers).

The first 3***** series man I can find in the Book of Honour is for an award on 16th April 1918 so I assume the 3***** series was the 1918 draft. Maybe someone can further this thread?

Regards,

Ian.

[asdarley]

Hi

Just to add in here I have a relative Pvt Percy Rowland Darley KIA 23/8/1918 buried Valenciennes St Roch

Apparently he is not on the Tank Corps roll of honour but his number was 75710.

I had thought he may have been killed as the tanks cleared Albert. However maybe he too was a transferred soldier?

Incidentally I live not too far from Bovington so if anyone has a special request?

[Verrinder Ian]

Edorc,

I checked your man out in the Tank Corps Book of Honour and (you're right) he's not there. However, when I checked the Soldiers Died in the Great War book he is listed! Here is his listing:

Darley, Percy Roeland. b. Leeds, e. Leeds, 75710, Pte. d., France & Flandres, 23/8/18, formerly 41984, Northumberland Fusiliers.

I would say that from my knowledge of the tank corps numbering he must have transfered to the tanks at Christmas 1916, following the request for volunteers sent out in November 1916. My Great Uncle arrived in January 1917 and was given a number 75915.

Have you anymore details of his service with the tanks?

Regards,

Ian.

[asdarley]

Ian

Sadly as far as I am aware no other details of his military career exist.

His brother emigrated to Brazil and his descendants still live there. Sadly their English was very poor ( Mind you my Spanish is non existent!) and contact has been lost with that branch of the family.

BTW HB MGC Would that be the Household Battalion?

Stan

[Verrinder Ian]

Stan,

HB MGC stands for Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps, which was the tanks designation before they were given the Tank Corps name. I'm mystified as to what BTW stands for though?

It would be very interesting to find out what tank battalion he fought in. Once you have that then there are loads of leads possible. I will have a think about it. However, if you have any details of where he was killed then that could give a good clue. What I can't understand is how he ended up near Valenciennes when that would have been someway behind the German lines. Maybe he was captured?

Regards,

Ian.

[Stebie9173]

BTW = By the way.

Non-military...

Steve.

[asdarley]

It would be very interesting to find out what tank battalion he fought in. Once you have that then there are loads of leads possible. I will have a think about it. However, if you have any details of where he was killed then that could give a good clue. What I can't understand is how he ended up near Valenciennes when that would have been someway behind the German lines. Maybe he was captured?

According to the CWGC web site he was a member of the 4th Bn Tank Corps

I agree with the query about Valenciennes. I Looked it up on multi map and it is well to the NE of Albert and past Cambrai also.

Sorry about the BTW I perhaps spend too much time on the old pc!

Stan

[asdarley]

If I have done this correctly there should be a picture of a tank showing. It is now in the Imperial War Museum and it is said to have belonged to the 4th Bn Tank Corps.

I think I can make out DEVIL on it. Would that mean all 4th Bn tanks names began with a D?

Further, do we think the name will be the original one? And does the serial number displayed help in any way?

Stan

Hurra! It worked!

[delta]

Stan

Certainly all D Bn tanks at Cambrai had names beginning with D; Devil II (serial D41) was a female Mark IV in 12th Coy, commanded by 2Lt RA Jones. I can find no record of a "Devil" at Flers Courcellette (September 1916) but most had "D" names.

The tank in IWM is interesting, this tank appears to be fitted with a mark I gun sponson but its' track tensioners are square making it a later mark. I'll try to find out what happened to Devil I - I would have through it was lost during Third Ypres...... but I could be wrong - she may have got back to England

Alternatively, as you suggest, the IWM tank could have been "renamed" as Devil; perhaps one of the real tank experts (I am not such) could confirm if serial ME 9828 painted above the driver's turret could give us a clue. Certainly the Mark I at Bovington (painted as Clan Leslie) did not see action on 16th September as the diorama would suggest

Stephen

[Verrinder Ian]

I'm fairly sure the IWM tank is a MkV. I should remember as I've seen it several times. On the side not shown on the photo the sponson is removed and the hole covered by perspex allowing a good view in.

From my research into "B" Battalion I can say that their tank names always commenced with the battalion "letter", even after the battalion was renamed as "2nd" Battalion. Furthermore, the same names often keep appearing but with I, II, III, etc after the name. I assume that if the crew were happy with the name (having survived to fight another day) they just added a number to the name when they received a replacement machine. I expect 4th Battalion did the same and so there were probably a whole line of "Devils".

I've also seen a personal account from one officer who said that he named his tank "Baby Mine" after a show he saw in London when on leave. However, the crew didn't think the name manly enough but the officer wouldn't change it as it seemed to prove lucky. I think there was alot of pride and not a little superstition when it came to tank names.

Ian.

[asdarley]

[quote

I've also seen a personal account from one officer who said that he named his tank "Baby Mine" after a show he saw in London when on leave. However, the crew didn't think the name manly enough but the officer wouldn't change it as it seemed to prove lucky. I think there was alot of pride and not a little superstition when it came to tank names.

Ian.

Interesting stuff here! Thanks. Re "lucky" names etc I think all fighting men had powerful talismans and tankers perhaps more so.

[yellow]

The only real way your going to be able to research OR's of the Tank Corps is by consulting the Medal Rolls which sometimes provide you with a Battalion also the Burnt Document Series........for service details.

Officers are easy.......if you own a copy of the Battalion histories of the Tank Corps most of the officers are mentioned and what tank they commanded. Sadly the mention of OR's often takes a back seat in many of these books.

Copies of the histories can be ordered through the Tank Museum web site at a very sensible price.

Steve.

[SiegeGunner]

His brother emigrated to Brazil and his descendants still live there. Sadly their English was very poor ( Mind you my Spanish is non existent!) and contact has been lost with that branch of the family.

Stan,

They speak Portuguese in Brazil

Mick

[asdarley]

Stan,

They speak Portuguese in Brazil

Mick

Good Grief!! No wonder no one replied!

[Guest LindseyHall]

I'm fairly sure the IWM tank is a MkV. I should remember as I've seen it several times. On the side not shown on the photo the sponson is removed and the hole covered by perspex allowing a good view in.

From my research into "B" Battalion I can say that their tank names always commenced with the battalion "letter", even after the battalion was renamed as "2nd" Battalion. Furthermore, the same names often keep appearing but with I, II, III, etc after the name. I assume that if the crew were happy with the name (having survived to fight another day) they just added a number to the name when they received a replacement machine. I expect 4th Battalion did the same and so there were probably a whole line of "Devils".

I've also seen a personal account from one officer who said that he named his tank "Baby Mine" after a show he saw in London when on leave. However, the crew didn't think the name manly enough but the officer wouldn't change it as it seemed to prove lucky. I think there was alot of pride and not a little superstition when it came to tank names.

Ian.

[Guest LindseyHall]

Hi Ian

I have just found my grandfather's war diary in which he mentions being in the tank "Baby Mine" at Messines Ridge on 7 June 1917. Do you have any more information from the Officer's account you describe? My grandfather was Harold Rodgers and from his war diary we know a little of his story during the war, but I'd love to know more.

Many thanks

Lindsey

[delta]

Lindsay

Sadly we don't the names of many of the tanks at Messines so the diary may help us

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1917/battleofmessinesridge/messines-abattalion/messines-bbattalion

Can you let us know more

[Sidearm]

The systematic naming of tanks was introduced until just before Third Ypres, and so it seems that few of the tanks at Messines were named. "Baby Mine" was a Mark IV Male, serial 2039 and crew number B32. It was commanded by a 2/Lt Thompson and formed a part of 7th Section 5th Company B Battalion. It was damaged in the action, the bottom of the starboard sponson being knocked in by shellfire.

I would be interested in anything the diary may be able to add on this or other machines.

Gwyn