south african blacks honoured

[Soren]

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/...2007021,00.html

I can understand the need, but when I was at school I certainly was not told about the white history/sacrifice during ww1 either, so might be good to start from there.........

[montbrehain]

I have visited the hollybrook memorial many times and would often read the names of the men on the memorial.(Its for those lost or buried at sea within British waters) many of the Black African troops only had single names !!! and so there are "John 1234" "John 3456" etc etc there are also names such as "whisky" "paraffin" "Friendly" . Its well worth a look if your in the area. Its in Hollybrook Cemetery near the General Hospital. The Most Famous name on the memorial would be K of K.

[beersheba]

I think this comes from this horrid idea called "Black History Month"..a idea started in the states..Whilst there is no "white history month" your allowed to have a black one..dont understand that..

I noticed the other day whilst looking at the new IWM list of events they seem to of gone very PC lately in Lambeth...Mary Seacole,the REAL angel of the crimea...florance was a fraud is seems now....a talk on black troops in ww2,a indian female SOE operative,and bloody shirly willaims doing the "peace talk" this year...

Its very hard to sound unbiased about these topics without sounding like a member of the BNP but if everyone was included,and remembered in the first place then you would'nt need this left wing rubbish.

We used to do programmes in Williamsburg virginia for years and they went PC and we just gave up on them soon after..trying to make history fit their political veiwpoint..impossible to do..

Rant over....hi mo..

Andy

[BeppoSapone]

I think this comes from this horrid idea called "Black History Month"..a idea started in the states..Whilst there is no "white history month" your allowed to have a black one..dont understand that..

I noticed the other day whilst looking at the new IWM list of events they seem to of gone very PC lately in Lambeth...Mary Seacole,the REAL angel of the crimea...florance was a fraud is seems now....a talk on black troops in ww2,a indian female SOE operative,and bloody shirly willaims doing the "peace talk" this year...

Its very hard to sound unbiased about these topics without sounding like a member of the BNP but if everyone was included,and remembered in the first place then you would'nt need this left wing rubbish.

We used to do programmes in Williamsburg virginia for years and they went PC and we just gave up on them soon after..trying to make history fit their political veiwpoint..impossible to do..

Rant over....hi mo..

Andy

Andy

Every month is "White History Month" and "Bloody Shirley Williams" mother did more than enough, and gave more than enough, and lost more than enough, in WW1 to allow her daughter free speech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Brittain

How is it "left wing rubbish" to remember Noor Inayat Khan as well as Violette Szabo or Odette Churchill? All three won the George Cross but, besides the bravery that won the GC, I think it would have taken a lot of moral courage to drop into Nazi occupied Europe as a non white. It should not be forgotten, or brushed aside. Largely it has been for 60 years.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SOEnoor.htm

You also need to actually look up Mary Seacole and see what she did in the Crimea, without any of Florence Nightingales connections and despite colour prejudice.

http://www.btinternet.com/~ardena/mary_seacole.htm

[beersheba]

what i'm saying is its no good replaceing one prejudice with another one,just from the other side...

and ok shirley williams MOTHER did a good diary...but shirley williams did'nt...forum rules prohibit me from going into details as to my feelings towards ms williams as you know.If we use that as a basis then seeing as Oswald Mosley was a WW1 war hero perhaps IWM will ask one of his desendents to do a talk..see what happens...difficult is'nt it...thats why the prime dirrective is in star trek...

Read what else i said...if EVERYONE was included properly then blacks would'nt need to have there own little seperate month of history..where do you end it..jewish history,gay history,disabled history,left handed person history month....get a grip here...see what i mean, you try to be unbiased and people think your a racist...

The sub title (the REAL angel ) on the mary seacole event at IWM gives the impression that seacole was the TRUE angel,and nightingale some sort of fraud...pushing one historical figure at the expense of another..just as unfair as before..why cant they (iwm) do something about both..

All i'm asking for is if you want to be inclusive you have to be inclusive to all and not at the cost of others..

As for every month is white history give me a brake...history today what ever seems popular to the media and the government..remember the victors write the history books..

thought my rant was over ....seems not.

[Kathie]

There is another thought which I would like to add to this debate.

In South AFrica you will not find black South African names on war memorials. For either WWI or WWII. I have been involved in some discussiions on this topic and a friend of mine, a Methodist minister who served in WWII, explained that when the SA Legion and the MOTHS were erecting the memorial (which I am researching) he raised the need to include black names. There was a resounding no. He then pointed out that it was these men who were good enough to stretcher bearer the white soldiers off the deserts in North AFrica and in Italy and to donate blood. The answer was still no. I started researching this memorial a few years ago. Subsequently hoodlums remeoved the bronze/brass plaque with names off the memorial. I offered to search up all missing names and gently added suggestiion that it would be appropriate to include a reference to those whose names had been omitted first time round. The sniffs and snuffles were most expressive.

The Mend memorial was belatedly erected - 1980s I think. The SA governemnt until at least 1989 refused to distribute medals issued by British authroities to black servicemen from WWI.

If you have grown up then with only one kind of history - in SA it was only white history- for women it is usually only male history - then one often has little interest in, regard for, respect for it. That is certainly the case with the Great War and subsequent wars in SA. The sad result is then that the majority of people have no regard for anyone's contribution to that history. So we have today a situation where it is incredibly difficult to inculcate much interest in WWI or WWII because, quite rightly, the response of most people will be "but that's European history, white experiences, not mine, not ours, not worth knowing about". And one can understand that point of view.

So I am all in favour of everyone in South Africa realisng, belatedly,that the entire country and every race group was involved in the Great War in many theatres - France, East Africa, Egypt etc. If it takes a special programme or exhibit or book or whatever to do it, why not.

I should point out that I can find no definitive figures for losses of black servicemen in France, East Africa and on the high seas in the Great War. Few of the published books give more than a passing mention and those that do (about three of them - one on the Mendi alone and two on the SA Native Contingent generally) contradict each other.

A similar issue in SA would be classical music. If you only have white musicians in an orchestra why would black people feel its for them. So we need black musicians. Then we will have black audiences, more funding etc etc.

Thats my rant. I dont think its an issue of left wing or right wing in SA. Its not even about redressing past wrongs. Its about inclusivity, recognition, nation building (some would say) and so on.

And - I have found some black men from the district who died in EAst Africa from malaria, who drowned on the Mendi and who should have been on the Bathurst District memorial. The problem is that the records only have one name and no family details.

Kathie

[Max]

Very well said Kathie

[andyspiller]

Kathie

I really enjoyed reading your considered and well-put view and having Springboks on my wife's side of the family can, without reservation, understand and agree with what you are saying. All men are equal regardless of creed, colour etc, etc.

However, I also have to agree with Andy (Beersheba), that in the UK we have this day for this, that day for that, this month for this, that month for that. IMHO, these kind of "special" events can actually be devisive inasmuch as they will make certain groups feel exclusive. Surely all of us in the UK should just be made to feel part of ONE nation.

End of rant

Rgds

Andy