Confirming a name and finding out more...

[Melanie]

Firstly I just found this site yesterday and I am amazed at the information here. Its like a magazine with hundreds of intresting articles.

Now onto my query.

I have a great great uncle Louis Betton.

The family grave lists him as killed in action in France on 13 Oct 1914 aged 33 and he is listed as in memoriam on the 1914-1918 church war memorial (Ainstable Cumberland).

Initially I could not trace anything about him. I tried the CWGC, medal cards, death certificate, list of soliders from the Royal Borderers in Carlisle Cathedral and the Royal Boarders museum. Anyone I spoke to was so helpful but we could find no trace.

Finally at a loss I tried the CWGC again concetrating on miss-spelt names. I found the following

BATTON, LEWIS

United Kindom

Private

Northumberland Fusiliers

1st Bn

Age 27

Date of Death: 13/10/1914

Service No: 8665

Memorial:Le Touret

Later I found that Louis Betton had married in 1913 in Gateshead and I already knew that he was born in Ainstable Cumberland.

I also found that the HMSO list of soldiers who died in the Great War, this confirmed that LEWIS BATTON had enlisted in Gateshead and was born in Cumberland. Then your sister site the 'Long Long Trail' had the Aug/Sep war diary for 1st. Bn Northumberland Fusiliers and for the 23 August mentioned an incident involving Privates Batton and Green of B Company.

In addition if I search the 1901 census LEWIS BATTON did not exist, neither can I find a birth entry for him.

So now for the string of questions...

How can I confirm that LEWIS BATTON and Louis Betton are the same person? Would any record mention next of kin and where could I find it?

How can I access the War Diary of the 1st Battalion Northumberland Fussiliers for Oct 1914?

As background detail how large is a Company?

If my relation was killed on 13 Oct 1914 would he have signed up on out break of war of would he have been either previoulsy enlisted or in the reserves? If he did sign up at the outbreak of war could he have made it to France so fast?

Were the reserves like the modern TA, i.e could someone hold a regular job and be in the army?

I would be grateful if anyone had any informative comments and look forward to hearing from you.

Finally I would like to point out that he died on 13 Oct and today it is the 12th. almost the 90 year anniversay. Louis Betton it may be a long time ago but your family still remembers you.

Melanie

[welshdoc]

this is a link to the national archives for his medal card

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

it looks very much like he enlisted under this name rather than it being a simple mistake as you have 3-4 peices of information for lewis and there is none for louis. the dates as well make if highly likely hes your relative. I think you would have to get his attestation papers if they exist (kew) or his death certificate which should hopefully confirm address and family.

as theres no L batton or baton of the correct ages he may simply have not been recorded or not in the country. The age differences are a problem as well.

[alliekiwi]

Someone with a soldiers who died in the great war CDrom might be able to see if there is more/different information on that than the CWGC.

1901 census

Can you find the rest of the family listed on the census, or none of them? If none of them, is it possible they had moved/were away on the night in question? Or perhaps whomever typed up the census documents, mis-read what they were reading and typed it incorrectly?

Company

Have a look at the definition onsite here.

Good luck with the rest.

Do you have a photo of Louis that we can have a look at? Always nice to put a face to a name.

Allie

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Melanie

If my relation was killed on 13 Oct 1914 would he have signed up on out break of war of would he have been either previoulsy enlisted or in the reserves? If he did sign up at the outbreak of war could he have made it to France so fast?

He would have one of three possiblities - a Regular serving in the army at the start of the war - a reservist, who was mobilized at start of the war - a special Reservist, who was only a part time soldier (I think they trained for a month each summer ?) but had to go over seas on mobilzion.

As background detail how large is a Company?

At the start of the war about 230 to 250.

Sorry can't help with other Q.

Annette

PS he may not be in the census because he was of fighting in Boer War or in India

[John_Hartley]

Melanie

When you were searching the Long Long Trail, diod you come across the "research" section. This should give you most of the answers to the "how do I find this out" questions.

And just to confirm one point - yes he would have either a regular soldier or an ex-regular still on the reserve and recalled whn war was declared. He was one of the "Old Contemptibles".

I agree it seems very likely that the two men are one and the same. But it also looks certain that he used the name Batton whilst he was serving. It's not uncommon for families of the time to have different spellings. The bets palce to check for any records would be the National Archives at Kew (although only about 30% survived a fire in the 1940s). AIt may also be worth you contacting the Fusiliers Museum to see if they have any records (often they have something about pre-war regulars)

John

(PS: welcome to the Forum)

[Aaron Nelson]

Melanie,

Firstly, welcome to the forum, you have come to the right place for information on your relative. This is truly an outstanding site with many members and incredible expertise.

To answer a couple of your questions.

A company in the army is roughly 250 men strong, there was normally 4 companies to a Battalion, which was in between 1000 - 1200 men strong. The War Diarys go to Battalion level, in your case the 1st Battalion Northumberland Fussiliers. Thats as close as you will get to original documents describing the movements of your relative. Its very interesting that you found a mention of your relative in the war diary, they can vary in detail greatly, and its quite rare that Other ranks eg privates etc are mentioned. Normally War diarys only mention Officers.

You will be able to order the 1st Btn Northumberland Fusillers war diary through the National Archives at Kew.

This Battallion was part of the 9th brigade of the 3rd Division.

Hers how the structure of the army worked, 4 Companies equal 1 Battalion, 3 or 4 Battallions equal 1 brigade, 3 or 4 Brigades equal one Division.

And finally on a personal note, my Great Grandfather was from Cumbria, born in Workington, he was in the artillery during the first world war and survived 2 years at the Western Front, through my own work and a lot of help from people on this forum, I managed to peice toegther the war history of my Grandpop. Im sure you will be able to do the same, good luck with your project and keep us updated.

Kindest regards Aaron.

[Jim Clay]

Melanie

This looks like your man, with his family, living in Ainstable, Cumberland, in 1891:

Name Age

Bridget Betton 36

Charlotte Betton 12

Louis P Betton 10

Mary E Betton 7

Oliver A Betton 1

Thomas G Betton 37

Thomas G Betton 3

William Betton 14

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 4278; Folio 8; Page 10

And this appears to be the same family in 1901, still living in Ainstable (no sign of Louis ... ):

Name Age

Bridget Betton 45

Charlotte Betton 22

Mary Betton 17

Oliver Betton 11

Thomas Betton 13

Thomas G Betton 48

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4857; Folio: 11; Page: 13.

The 1901 census does have a 20 year old Louis BRITTON, born Armathwaite, Cumberland, living in Blyth, Northumberland, as a coal miner. Could this be a mis-enumeration of your Gt Gt Uncle?

By the way, on the evidence you've got, I'd say it looks very likely to me that the Lewis Batton on CWGC IS your Louis Betton.

All the best with your research - you've come to a great place for help and encouragement.

Jim

Additional info:

Louis Philip BETTON's birth was registered Penrith in the March quarter, 1881:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Births Mar 1881

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Betton Louis Philip Penrith 10b 429

And this is a list of the BATTONs in the index of O/Rs killed overseas in WW1:

Note the first name LEWIE - a bit more eveidence ....

Jim

Edited 12 October , 2006 by Jim Clay

[Melanie]

Thanks everyone for your replies they are very much appreciated and the additional info gives renewed zest to persue some more information.

I have one thing to add since first entering this post. It now appears that Louis Betton had a son born shortly before the conflict began. Perhaps by chaining forwards I may be lucky and find not only some distant kin but a picture, some anectdotes or some character detail

Once again many thanks

Melanie

[Melanie]

To give you all an update and to ask for one more thing.... a SDGW CD lookup.

I am still convinced that they are one and the same but still cannot tie it down absolutely definitively. What would do this is a next of kin entry.

I'd love to go to Kew/Alnwick and will at some point but I live in Northern Ireland so its not simple.

What I have so far -:

Louis Betton born 1881 in Ainstable/Armanthwaite Cumberland, coal miner, married to Margaret Ann Parker 1913, son Abraham born Gateshead February 1914, killed in action 13 Oct 1914 aged 33.

(His wife Margaret Betton died in 1954 never having remarried, I cannot find any trace of his son leading me to conclude that he may still be living however it is stange that no one the family has heard of him and they were a clanish lot).

Lewis Batton born Armathwaite, Northumberland Fusiliers 8665, age at death listed on CWGC as 27, on death certificate as 33.

Info in the war diaries would suggest he was B Company.

War Diary listing

23 August 1914 - Battle of Mons. B and C Companies in the positions they had taken up on 22 (Blaregnies - Mons Conde Canal) and which they had strengthened by barricading the three bridges in their area and by fortifying the houses and barricading the streets south of the canal. The line was continued to the west by the bridge and to the right by the R. Scots Fusil. and the 4th. Royal Fusil. The attack developed on C Company about 11:00 am by heavy shell fire which was turned on to B Company about noon. In this case being supplemented by heavy rifle fire and the enemy gradually massed in large numbers in the dead ground in front of B Company and were able to bring a field gun to within 150 yards of the main barrier which was blocking the chief street leading to the bridgehead. Owing to the smoke from the houses that were burning and the dust caused by the gun fire it was impossible to locate their position accurately but the enemy must have lost heavily. Two men of B Company Ptes Green and Batton was in a house defending the bridgehead with Corporeal Johnson. This house was blown up and Cple. Johnson killed and the two men got into a cellar which had a window looking at the bridge. Here they remained unable to retreat with their Company. Ten minutes after the barrier had be vacated the Germans started to cross the bridge and were marching across it in 4 continuously for 3 hours. These two men escaped at dusk and rejoined the batallion 5 days later.

12 October 1914 - B Company marched at 6:00 am about 10 miles to Vielle Chapelle. On the way at Le Cornet Malo B Company was divided into two columns. B Company and R. Fusil. Forming one column under Lt. Col Bemaham R. Fusil. This column supported 8th Batt which was in action at Ville Chapelle. At dusk B Company was withdrawn to billets at Paradis.

13 October 1914 - B Company attached to 8th. Batt marched at 5:00am halted at Zelobes and came into action in the early afternoon on the extream left of the line which was attacking in Vbout de Ville. Not much progress was made and B Company _______ for the night on the line of Rue de Ponch.

In the appendix 8665 Private Batton appears in the list of casualities as killed at Pont du Hem and Herlies.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Melanie,

This may be of no use to you but on the off chance it is, I set out below notes taken from a bio I was writing on L/Cpl TH Anderson of 1/NF who was kia on 14/9/1914:

"His battalion was to form part of the 9th Brigade of the 3rd Division under Major General Hubert Hamilton who was himself killed in action, 14th October 1914. The 3rd Division were one of the first that went over to France, sailing from Southampton on the SS Norman at 16:00 hours on the 13th August 1914. The journey would have been slow as the Norman carefully crossed the channel under threat of mine or U-boat. When the men disembarked at Havre in northern France they had been at sea for 13 hours.

Having arrived in France the battalion were given a sort period of field training at a “rest” camp before travelling to Landrecis via Rouen by train, arriving there on 16th August.

It was at Voyelles that they caught up with their Division and crossed with them into Belgium to face the advance of the German army. Here they were involved in one of the first skirmishes against the Germans when a detachment of the battalion were able to surprise the front ranks of a German column at the Conde Canal, just north of Mons. This was typical of other early fighting when an unsuspecting German army ran into well prepared Allied troops.

A planned full frontal attack on the German forces did not materialise after the French Fifth Army was forced to retreat rather than joining the flanks of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF). The British themselves were obliged to withdraw from Mons. In making their withdrawal the battalion had to avoid German shelling as best they could and fight their way through the streets of the town of Frameries. As is now known the general withdrawal almost turned into a rout and did not stop until 4th September.

By this time Thomas and his Battalion were at Chatres and here they received orders for an about-turn. The German army had overstretched themselves and the BEF would support a French counter-attack.

The advance of the 1st Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers was marked by small skirmishes as they fought their way back across the River Marne. On the 14th September, Thomas moved with his Battalion up to Rouge-Maison. It was here that he was killed in action."

Regards,

Jon S

[ian turner]

Melanie,

Have you seen the marriage certificate? It might have his occupation down as being a serviceman, with some detail? Worth a look if you have not already done so.

I note from the FBMD site that he is listed as Louis P Betton in the marriage details. That matches the 1901 census name/initial at least.

Ian

[shaymen]

SDGW entry

[Jim Clay]

It does look as though the Army enlisted him as Lewie Batton, and that's how they recorded him ever-after (with an odd lapse to Lewis).

Jim

[Melanie]

Many thanks once again.

Shaymen - I am glad to have the SDGW entry as it makes it clear that the next time I'm on the mainland I will be heading to Kew. Its a great database I only wish I could justify the expenditure. Anyway on to other things thats a great fish you have.

Jon I appreciate the extra info from your write up. Its always nice to think of these things serving more than one purpose and answering others thirst for info. What it does make clear is that from the time they entered France they were well and truely in the thick of it.

As to Louis Betton - I do have his marriage certificate where he is listed as a miner. My great aunt says that he and his brothers were miners until there was an inrush of water, mud and general debris at the mine killing a number of people. That mine then closed and the other brothers moved on to another, they even spent years in Australia and the USA mining; only coming home when they had made enough. Louis did not do this, he joined the army. He was however listed as a miner until as late as 1914 when his son was born. Either he was unlucky joining up just prior to the outbreak of war or he had been a territorial of some kind all along and the war then enabled him to jump from mining into the army - under the circumstances a bad mistake. Perhaps he viewed mining as being as dangerous as soldering. The mining side of it however does tally with the War Diary entry of not 'losing' it when the house he was in was blown up and then hiding in the cellar. He no doubt felt at home in the Mons area which I understand was based on industry and mining. It may have even provided him with somewhere to hole up during the days he and the other fellow were missing.

Once again thanks very much. All in all I am lucky to have so much info on one person however you know how it is you always want just a little bit more.

Melanie