Braithwaite Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 My Grandfather enlisted at Chorlton Town Hall, signing up for the King's (Liverpool) on Sept 4th 1914 (his 21st birthday!) He went with his mate Mr Helms. On the 6th they arrived at Seaforth barracks and the next day they paraded. The two friends stood side by side. They numbered off, the section was split in half and they were separated. They were told that this would only be whilst they were on parade but then Mr Helms' section marched off the parade ground and it was later reported that they had gone to the South of England. Mr Helms is never mentioned again anywhere in Grandad's diary. Grandad was attached to the 4th King's (Liverpool) but what would have happened to Mr Helms? How would I find out? Presumably he would be attached to another King's battalion. Granadad's section went to Edinburgh for training, could Mr Helms have gone to a camp in the south for his training? I know nothing else about the mysterious Mr Helms except that he worked in Manchester for a firm of grocers before the war. Any ideas? Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Dear Braithwaite, At least Mr. Helms survived the war. A quick check of the CWGC site reveals only three casualties of that name, none of them from Lancashire...although they do have interesting burial locations! Sorry I can't be more help, but it might be nice to know that he lived! Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John84 Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I can find only one Helms serving with the Liverpool Regiment on the medal index cards. It's a very good chance this is him look at his sevice number when joining....very close to your Granadad's number. John. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 His number is only a few away from George Braithwaites. George = 20119 (later RE 360711) and Cecil Walter Helms = 20289 so this is likely to be the man. Cecil Helms was commissioned as a 2/Lt on 29-8-1917 after training as a cadet per the London Gazette. Steve. P.S. Sorry, John. Just realised I've repeated some of what you said. I'm awake now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Sue Cecil Walter Helms would have been a similar age to your grandfather. He died at the age of 93 in 1987 in Weston Super Mare, Somerset. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I think we can sort this with certainty. C W Helms (presumably Cecil) is listed in the Manchester City Battalions Book of Honour as an employee of T Seymour Mead Ltd. Seymour Meads were a large chain of grocers in the area. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 The only Cecil Helms on the 1901 Census is 7 year old Cecil W Helms, born in 1893 (Oct, Nov, Dec quarter) in Northampton, the son of Arthur and Clara Helms. He had one brother at that time, Arthur Sydney (age 10). Arthur Senior was a boot and shoe operator (not exactly uncommon in Northampton at the time...) Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Bruce, John x 2, Steve and Myrtle, Who do you think you are ? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Dear Sue, It looks as though our brilliant pals have answered your question - it just remains to be seen if cecil Helm's service file survives at Kew, a good chance. Then you could find out exactly what happened to him from Sept 1914 onwards. However, I'd like to pick up on another point if I may. You said your grandfather was with the 4th Bn King's. Was he still with them in August 1916 on the Somme. You mentioned that he had a diary. It would be very interesting to read about his experiences. My interest is that my great uncle was in the 4th KLR and killed in August 1916. regards Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braithwaite Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 You are all amazing..thank you. That is my grandfather and they did work at Seymour Meads. How on earth did you do that? Thanks In total astonishment Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 How on earth did you do that? We are just magical people with special powers from a planet in a faraway galaxy and are just visiting here on what I think you Earthlings call a "short break". Glad to have helped. John (PS: If Cecil was commissioned then his file will be at Kew. Look at their on-line catalogue for a document in either the WO339 or WO374 series) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 And all in 2 hours. The power of the internet and the Forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I'll have a pint of what John's having.... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I'll have a pint of what John's having.... Steve. Me too By the way according to The Gazette Cecil Helms appears to have become a temp. Lt. on 1st March 1919. Can someone tell me what the words that come after this announcement mean "with precedence next below W.J.Elliott ;" Is this something to do with hierarchy and officers ? Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Myrtle As I understand it - yes. It would mean that Elliott had been commissioned immediately before Helms and, if push came to shove, was the senior officer. The discussion crops up in the film "Zulu", when Chard and Wosstheotheronecalled discuss date of commission so they can decide who is in command. All theatrical cobblers, of course, Chard had already been given his orders as senior officer. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Thanks John Chard & Bromhead I believe. I should have remembered Zulu especially with all that Welsh singing Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 A lot of officers with files at TNA who have the surname 'Helm' but only one 'C. Helms' - reference WO339/90070 Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I have just read this post with amazement. A 90 year old mystery cleared up in a couple of hours from, in fairness to Sue, fairly limited information. Excellent stuff Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldbilluk Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I am saving this page and next time anyone asks me "The Internet? But what's it really useful for?" I'll just show them this. Congratulations to a great team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promenade Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 to add more to the thread About 440 men who enlisted in Manchester between 4 and 9 Sep 1914 were posted, mainly, to 12 KLR (formed in Sept 1914) and 14 KLR (formed Oct 1914). They were allocated numbers within the block 20062 - 20506. Numbers were allocated alphabetically ie Anderson has No 20062 and Yates has the number No 20506. This explains the number differential between Braithwaite (No. 20119) and Helms (no 20289). Helms was allocated to 12 KLR and crossed to France with the Bn on 24/7/15. Promenade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braithwaite Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I agree wholeheartedly with Liam...I hadn't even given my grandfather's name and I knew next to nothing about the nownolongermysterious Mr Helms. I almost didn't ask the question. But WOW...I'm very glad I did. Huge thanks Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Sue I don' tknow if you're familiar with the area, but this is a link to a 1970s photo of Chorlton Town Hall. Click here I thought I knew Chorlton reasonably well but I just can't think where it is, although it's "listed building" so must still be there somewhere. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John84 Posted 12 October , 2006 Share Posted 12 October , 2006 Sue After I little bit more research, I am in contact with the husband of the granddaughter of Cecil Walter Helms. If you could send me your email address via a personal message, I will pass it on to the family....they would love to talk to you. Not bad ehh for only having the name of Mr Helms in your granddads diary. I bet before this post comes to a close, we will all see a photo of Cecil on the forum. Yes Chris's forum is an amazing place!!. Best wishes John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 12 October , 2006 Share Posted 12 October , 2006 I want to know about Grandad now. And his diary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 12 October , 2006 Share Posted 12 October , 2006 Sue After I little bit more research, I am in contact with the husband of the granddaughter of Cecil Walter Helms. If you could send me your email address via a personal message, I will pass it on to the family....they would love to talk to you. Not bad ehh for only having the name of Mr Helms in your granddads diary. I bet before this post comes to a close, we will all see a photo of Cecil on the forum. Yes Chris's forum is an amazing place!!. Best wishes John. Well done John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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