Cam Whites

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi all,

You have possibly seen this picture before of a night patrol going out wearing what is quite commonly called 'cam whites' - nowadays.

Were these generally available in the trenches as a winter trench store, or issued as specialist equipment for Scouts/Snipers etc.? When did they come into service?

Any assistance is most appreciated, Many Thanks

Aye

Tom McC

[auchonvillerssomme]

There is an entry in 'I was There' that mentions going out in night shirts. I have never been sure whether they actually wore night shirts or that it was comic reference to an issued white outfit.

Mick

[Guest KevinEndon]

They are now called poly whites and no doubt they had fun in the trenches with these things.

As you can imagine it is very difficult to answer the call of nature (no2) in these and it is common practice to remove your droppings in the battlefield and bury them somewhere else. Many soldiers have either pooped in the hood of the poly whites and thinking the doo doo had dropped into the snow only to discover a stink later on from the hood, or another trick was to sneek up behind someone with a shovel and let them poop onto it and remove the article. The soldier now stands up looking for his ex personal belongings and is now in a panic incase its inside his hood or inside his trousers. The joys of the British Army.

[Joe Sweeney]

Tom,

I did a quick look through records I have and did not find white camo's.

I did find a lot on scout over-alls and suits. Generally the full piece over-alls were pattern sealed in mid 1917 and were in a light or dark khaki shade.

These suites looked almost identical to the white ones in the photo and the IWM has an original on light scouts over-alls on display " Suit, Over-alls Night Scout".

I would assume any all white, one piece suites, would have been available winter 17/18.

Also in 1916 there were a series of combination two piece suites in light and dark shades of khaki approved for scouts.

I'll take another look later through the RACD records. This can be a chore as the index is not the greatest and you have to know the exact nomenclature that was used for starters unless one wants to go page by page which I actually do quite often.

One good thing about tonights search is I found the dates and details to the Brown Drill Tanker's over-alls. I had actually done a search for Wainfleet months back and could not find the info--seemed I did find every other conceivable type of brown over-alls used by mechanics etc.. Now I stumbled across two references; the initial approved pattern in late 1915 and a pattern renewal in 1918.

Joe Sweeney

[Tom A McCluskey]

Joe,

Many Thanks for your efforts . I think I may have also seen another picture of a couple of snipers wearing what I thought was the pre-curser to a Ghillly Suit so it's probably the: Suit, Over-alls Night Scout that they were wearing. If I find the picture I will post it.

Aye

Tom McC

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Presumably the RND could just request to be issued with naval whites, the tropical uniform.

[Joe Sweeney]

Tom,

I found the references to camo whites!!! of course looking for something else.

These particular articles were introduced in 1918.

Over-alls, White for raiding Parties

Covers, white Drill, for steel Helmets

Covers, rifle, snow

Issue instructions were for special articles of winter clothing GRO 5103 25 Sept 1918.

up to 20 of each article per Infantry Battalion when considered necessary, for use by raiding parties in snowy weather. To be held as "Divisonal Stores"

Joe Sweeney

[Tom A McCluskey]

Jo,

Many thanks. I haven't forgotten about the kilt pin, I just haven't been to Balhousie yet.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Joe,

Here is another IWM picture of clothing available at the RACD. Looks good for a caption competition

Aye

Tom McC

[chris mccarthy]

1/1/1917

So the raiders dressed in white canvas clothing made and fitted by the regimental tailor. As the sides and bottoms of the craters were not entirely covered with snow, black patches were not entirely covered with snow, black patches were sewn on to the garments to make camouflage complete, while boots, steel helmets and rifles were also covered with white canvas. All were armed with revolvers and bombs, four carried kobkerries, and two amonal charge with a 90 second fuse.

Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry 1914-1919. R Hodder-Williams

Hodder and Stoughton.

1923 Page 205

[chris mccarthy]

And another:

On 25th February 1916 snow fell and lay several inches deep on the ground. White gowns and night caps were issued to front line troops for use on patrols, but in a few days rain fell and reduced every thing once more to the platitude of mud.

History of the 1/6 Battalion The Warwickshire Regiment.

Cornish Brothers Ltd. 1922 Page 21

[pietro]

Looks like an early promotional photo for The Village People - first recording was RAMC... then they changed it to YMCA.

Sorry getting carried away.....

[Joe Sweeney]

Joe,

Here is another IWM picture of clothing available at the RACD. Looks good for a caption competition

Aye

Tom McC

Tom,

The whites are the ones referred to above in my previuos post.

The coat on the left is a standard "Coat Sheepskin lined" which were commonly issued to ASC drivers and other personnel in that capacity.

The other stuff i'll have to look-up but I believe second from left is fire fighting gear and the man on far right is wearing a life-preserver,

Joe Sweeney

[chris mccarthy]

I wondered if the second from the left is a flame throwers cover all.

[Simon Jones]

I wondered if the second from the left is a flame throwers cover all.

Yes it is. These are in the RE Library

S

[Joe Sweeney]

Simon,

The actual name of that suite appears to be "Suites Anti-liquid fire" pattern 3023/1918.

Do you know if any went to France?

Joe Sweeney

[Simon Jones]

Joe

Thanks, I did not know the name. I believe the photos were taken at the Wembley experimental ground. The flamethrower is the Hay, which was used at Zeebrugge but I don't know if the operators wore the suites. I would assume they did.

S

[john in minnesota]

A number of these were sold on ebay several years ago as WW1 British snow camo smocks. As it's not marked and I haven't found any specific documentation for it, its been in my "maybe" box. Anybody found out anything on these? It sure looks like a bee-keeper smock except for the strange bellow at the chest which looks like it accomodates an SBR...

[Joe Sweeney]

Joe

Thanks, I did not know the name. I believe the photos were taken at the Wembley experimental ground. The flamethrower is the Hay, which was used at Zeebrugge but I don't know if the operators wore the suites. I would assume they did.

S

Simon,

Do you know the date of the photo by chance?

The photos look like trials photos, i.e. taken during the initial experimentation of the suites and probably pre-date the actual pattern sealing.

Not that uncommon.

The first photo in this thread is obviuosly staged and may fall into that category.

It was obviuosly taken with a flash. Brings up the quote from Blackadder about "Sitting on a stool in Nomans land smoking endless fags through a luminous balaclava." or there abouts.

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

A number of these were sold on ebay several years ago as WW1 British snow camo smocks. As it's not marked and I haven't found any specific documentation for it, its been in my "maybe" box. Anybody found out anything on these? It sure looks like a bee-keeper smock except for the strange bellow at the chest which looks like it accomodates an SBR...

John,

I remember those suites, I shied away at the time as i didn't collect specialized pieces of gear.

At the RACD or War-Office Level I could only find the items mentioned in late 1918 in my prevuiuos post. There was a plethora of other type night scout suites with separate hoods and crawling suites etc. Nothing that fit the description of the smock type thing in your photo

However, that was only at the War Office Level. There were lots of stuff manufactured in theatre that never got pattern sealed. A lot of the sniper gear fell into that category.

So don't know if its genuine or not?

Joe Sweeney

[Simon Jones]

Do you know the date of the photo by chance?

The photos look like trials photos, i.e. taken during the initial experimentation of the suites and probably pre-date the actual pattern sealing.

I am 90% sure the flame thrower photos were taken at the Wembley Experimental Station during 1918. I have a 'Brief Record of Flame Projector Work at Wembley Experimental Station' from the National Archives (WO142/250) which states that the portable flame projector was developed at the beginning of 1918. The report does not mention protective clothing but does describe several serious accidents in 1916-17 when men were badly burned.

S

[Joe Sweeney]

Simon,

Thanks, The actual pattern sealing for the "Suite, Anti-Liquid fire" was July 1918. It was sealed as a "First Pattern"

I was wondering how close on either side of that date the photos could have been taken.

Joe Sweeney

[Simon Jones]

Simon,

Thanks, The actual pattern sealing for the "Suite, Anti-Liquid fire" was July 1918. It was sealed as a "First Pattern"

I was wondering how close on either side of that date the photos could have been taken.

Joe

I just couldn’t say. The photos were donated by a descendant of someone who worked on the experiments but I don't think they knew anything about them and there was no kind of caption info. The suits could have been developed for use at Zeebrugge in April 1918 and sealed afterwards, or they could have been developed as a result of Zeebrugge. My feeling is that the photos were taken before Zeebrugge while the Hay flamethrower was being developed and men trained in its use because suits show a lot of wear.

S

[Joe Sweeney]

Simon,

Thanks again.

Not surprised about earlier use of the suites.

Not uncommon for an item to be developed under one branch of the government then thrown over the fence to another branch. This gives the appearance of late recording. But it's not really.

Chances are the suites were developed under an organization like the "Trench Warfare Department" or department of inventions. It would only have been recorded in RACD documents once that organization took responsibility. That's why I was asking about dates.

There are lots of examples of items transferring responsibility from one organization to another.

The Helmet is a good example. Developed via WO Inventions Departments then Ministry of Munitions (Trench Warfare Department). Finally transferred to the RACD in April 1917 with patterns sealed that month. Later transeferred to the QMG9 "Stores" and assigned a LoC number in October 1918.

Most items follow a far more mundaine route

Joe Sweeney