Australian Soldier's patch

[Fedelmar]

I am trying to identify a photograph and not having much luck at present. The only distintictive aspect of the photograph is a patch on the left forearm which looks like 2 crossed flags.

Any ideas?

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[BeppoSapone]

Two crossed flags on the forearm = Signaller

[Fedelmar]

Thanks for that ...

Now I just need to go back and compare that scan ... much appreciated

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[kbonney88]

Two crossed flags on the forearm = Signaller

Hi..

Regarding the Crossed Flags Badge - how big is it ?? - what i mean is, what are the dimensions of the badge for the 1908 Patt Service Dress ??

Regards,

Kevin.

[grantsmil]

The badges of the crossed flags were also available in metal versions as well.

[Muerrisch]

Of the three versions shown, the only one that might be contemporary 1914 1918 is the plain Gilding Metal one.

Incidentally, this badge was not worn by signallers of the RE Signal Service, who wore an armband blue and white.

[mark holden]

Grumpy,

Was the enamelled version of the badge a pre WW1 issue or simply a 'private purchase item?

thanks

Mark

Of the three versions shown, the only one that might be contemporary 1914 1918 is the plain Gilding Metal one.

Incidentally, this badge was not worn by signallers of the RE Signal Service, who wore an armband blue and white.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi

Here are two early examples on tunics of mine very crude compared to later examples.

I am not sure when the enamelled version came out.

Jonathan

[mark holden]

Jonathan,

Nice badges I would actually say better workmanship than the modern cloth one shown earlier in this thread.

regards

Mark

Hi

Here are two early examples on tunics of mine very crude compared to later examples.

I am not sure when the enamelled version came out.

Jonathan

[Fedelmar]

Thanks for the help peoples

It was on the right forearm and covered almost the width of the sleeve that was facing the camera ... it is a round patch with the flags in the centre ... I suspected it to be signallers of some sort.

I am back in Fremantle now and the photograph is in Albany so wont be able to check it till I get down there again.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi

Sandra

It sounds very large, it may be something else?

it would be good to see the photo.

Thanks Mark, they are nice like you said, the modern ones are more standard but have no character.

Jonathan

[grantsmil]

Of the three versions shown, the only one that might be contemporary 1914 1918 is the plain Gilding Metal one.

Incidentally, this badge was not worn by signallers of the RE Signal Service, who wore an armband blue and white.

There is something unusual. I was under the impression that all the badges shown, including plain brass, bronze and blackened bronze badges were all contemporary to 1914 - 1918.

Is there a refernce that precludes the cloth and enamelled badges from being worn 1914 -1918?

[mark holden]

Grant,

As I understand Grumpy, the enamel type was pre WW1, the Brass of WW1 vintage and I think his specific reference is to the current issue cloth badge that was shown earlier in the thread which is not WW1. There were definitely cloth version worn in WW1 but the weave style is significantly different and two very nice WW1 examples were shown later in the thread. My interpretation anyway.

regards

Mark

There is something unusual. I was under the impression that all the badges shown, including plain brass, bronze and blackened bronze badges were all contemporary to 1914 - 1918.

Is there a refernce that precludes the cloth and enamelled badges from being worn 1914 -1918?

[montbrehain]

heres a pic of a 1st Divvy signaller that may be of interest. it is also a classic example of the most "over the top" private purchase "leave tunic" that i have ever seen ! i cant quiet make his name out on the postcard. can any body else make it out?

[grantsmil]

Grant,

As I understand Grumpy, the enamel type was pre WW1, the Brass of WW1 vintage and I think his specific reference is to the current issue cloth badge that was shown earlier in the thread which is not WW1. There were definitely cloth version worn in WW1 but the weave style is significantly different and two very nice WW1 examples were shown later in the thread. My interpretation anyway.

regards

Mark

Thanks Mark, That tends to make sense. There are too many images showing WW1 soldiers wearing cloth crossed flags, plus uniforms like Jonathan's, to say that the cloth badge is not contemporary to WW1. But if we are referring to the specific badge illustrated above, then any expert is entitled to caste judgment on the image of that particular badge.

Regarding the enameled badge, I have seen a number of these badges worn by soldiers in WW1 photos. If it is the case that these badges were withdrawn from service before WW1, then I think it would be interesting to know when, and thus why so many were still in service during the war.

[mark holden]

Grant,

I think one needs to be careful about regulations when it comes to soldiers choice. While regulation may render a badge unauthorised or obsolete if Tommy Atkins often decides to the contary he will continue to wear it. I am sure therefore that the enamelled badges were worn during WW1, even if the all brass one was current issue.

regards

Mark

Thanks Mark, That tends to make sense. There are too many images showing WW1 soldiers wearing cloth crossed flags, plus uniforms like Jonathan's, to say that the cloth badge is not contemporary to WW1. But if we are referring to the specific badge illustrated above, then any expert is entitled to caste judgment on the image of that particular badge.

Regarding the enameled badge, I have seen a number of these badges worn by soldiers in WW1 photos. If it is the case that these badges were withdrawn from service before WW1, then I think it would be interesting to know when, and thus why so many were still in service during the war.

[BeppoSapone]

heres a pic of a 1st Divvy signaller that may be of interest. it is also a classic example of the most "over the top" private purchase "leave tunic" that i have ever seen ! i cant quiet make his name out on the postcard. can any body else make it out?

Signaller Dent?

[Muerrisch]

My comment was specific to the initial worsted badge, which is much more recent than Great War.

My searches of the Royal Army Clothing Department ledgers has never traced an introduction date for the enamelled variety, which may be a privately purchased or regimentally purchased vanity item.

Many of the skill-at-arms badges were issued in gilding metal ['brass'] for hot countries, as it made for easy removal when clothing was frequently laundered. [Rank cheverons were attached with hooks and eyes, for example].

The big expansion of worsted badges was 1901, for sewing on to Service Dress. The crossed flags was in the ledger dated 27 August 1901.

There was a systematic change to gilding metal in 1906 [again for SD] and crossed flags were ledgered 14 Nov 1906 to replace the worsted version.

That said, worsted and GM are both common in our period.

Taking a tight Treasury stance, why ever issue an expensive enamelled version: simply no need. Having said that, I have a slack handful in my collection, all beautifully finished.

Remember, signallers were an elite, a 'tribe within a tribe', the most intelligent and active soldiers in the battalion, according to contemporary accounts. Most soldiers did not have the ability to meet the high standards demanded. A certain swagger with a private purchase might seem justified.

I would be very glad to see an authoritative reference for official issue of an enamelled cross flags.