German Shrapnel Shells

[auchonvillerssomme]

Did the germans during WW1 use lead (lead mixture) balls in their shrapnel shells?

I have a couple of reasons for asking. Firstly the lack of lead balls on British trench areas and secondly,

I have come across some excellent condition steel balls within a broken up shell. (don't panic, the nasty bits weren't attached)

references would be appreciated.

Mick

[Hoplophile]

At the start of the war, German shrapnel bullets were made of an alloy of lead and antimony. As neither of these were produced in great quantities in territory controlled by the Central Powers, I would not be surprised if the Germans made shrapnel bullets out of steel, which was one of the few basic materials that the Germans had no shortage of during the war. However, neither of my desktop references on German artillery in World War I* make any mention of steel shrapnel bullets.

For an extensive discussion of pre-war shrapnel bullets, as well as the reasons why steel shrapnel bullets were not used before the war, see H.A. Bethel, Modern Guns and Gunnery, (Woolwich: F. J. Cattermole, 1910).

*The two 'desktop references' are Hans Linnekohl, Vom Einzelschuß zur Feuerwaltz (Koblenz: Bernhard und Graefe, 1990) and Herbert Jäger, German Artillery of World War I, (Ramsbury: Crowood, 2001)

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thanks for that. This is a question i have been thinking about for a while. What originally prompted it was numerous spherical (although very rusted) pieces of shrapnel on the lower slopes of hawthorn Ridge and behind the Sunken Road. Last week I came across a shell which had been broken by a plough and managed to pull out several steel shrapnel bullets in excellent condition but which appear to be very slightly larger than the usual lead.

Mick

[withcall]

I can't quote any erudite references, but I've always assumed that both British and German shrapnel balls were lead, and that the steel ones were French. We've usually found plenty of the lead ones around the Chemin des Dames area, which would seem to suggest that they were German, as the Brits were only there briefly in 1914 and 1918. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, though, if anyone knows different.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I can't quote any erudite references, but I've always assumed that both British and German shrapnel balls were lead, and that the steel ones were French. We've usually found plenty of the lead ones around the Chemin des Dames area, which would seem to suggest that they were German, as the Brits were only there briefly in 1914 and 1918. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, though, if anyone knows different.

I assumed that the French shells contained lead balls, although my information was mainly from Wikipedia.

The French 75 fired two types of shells, in 1914, with a muzzle velocity of 500 meters/second and a maximum range of 6,900 meters : 1) a 5.3 kg slightly delayed ( 0"05) impact-fused, high-explosive (HE) thin-walled steel shell designed to explode at a man's height after having bounced forward off the ground ( the 75 had a low angle trajectory). A melted explosive called trinitrophenol, picric acid or "Melinite", was used since 1888 to fill French artillery shells. And 2): a 7.24 kg time-fused shrapnel shell containing 290 lead balls which were projected forward , at the instant of bursting high above ground.

Mick

[johnreed]

Just a short list of Germen Artillery shrapnel Shells

7.7 cm Shrapnel contained 300 gm lead balls 45 to the lb.

9 cm Shrapnel contained 262 13 gm lead balls 35 to the lb

9,5 cm Shrapnel contained 11.1 gm steel balls 41 to the lb

10,5 cm Shrapnel contained 450 11 gm steel balls 41 th the lb

12.0 cm Shrapnel contained 592 13 gm 35 to the lb

13.0 cm Shrapnel contained 1,170 11.1 gm lead/steel? 41 to the lb

15.0 cm Shrapnel contained 1,600 11.1 gm lead balls 41 to the lb

21 cm Shrapnel 135 150gm steel balls 3 to the lb & 170 26 gm lead balls 17 to the lb

John

[withcall]

John's post seems to add weight (sorry!) to the lead side of the discussion. As I said, I have no evidence other than experience on the ground. We were on Redan Ridge in October last year, and there had been a particular combination of weather conditions and harvest which had left a potato field with its surface smoothed absolutely flat, except for several mini-trenches where the storm water had run off. At various points in these gullies there were dense concentrations of small debris; this consisted of mostly lead shrapnel balls, with steel shell splinters, bullet tips and no more than three or four steel balls over the whole field. Given that these are always rusty and harder to see, it still suggests an overwhelming use of lead in shrapnel shells. This area would, I think, have been bombarded by the French until early 1916, by the Brits until November 1916, and then by the Germans until Spring 1918. Some years earlier we saw a similar phenomenon in the field next to Adanac Cemetery.

A colleague once explained to me the geological process whereby shrapnel gets 'squeezed' to the surface. I didn't really understand it then, so I can't re-hash the theory, but maybe steel balls behave differently in this process? When they were little, my sons used to pick up lead shrapnel to amuse themselves during Dad's interminable battlefield hikes; there are three or four 1 litre ice-cream boxes full of the stuff in our garage, but no more than a dozen steel balls picked up in all that time - maybe six or seven years of visits.

[johnreed]

The steel bullets(balls) is called sand shot in the british shells, it was mainly used in the naval ammunition,

John

[auchonvillerssomme]

Just a short list of Germen Artillery shrapnel Shells

7.7 cm Shrapnel contained 300 gm lead balls 45 to the lb.

9 cm Shrapnel contained 262 13 gm lead balls 35 to the lb

9,5 cm Shrapnel contained 11.1 gm steel balls 41 to the lb

10,5 cm Shrapnel contained 450 11 gm steel balls 41 th the lb

12.0 cm Shrapnel contained 592 13 gm 35 to the lb

13.0 cm Shrapnel contained 1,170 11.1 gm lead/steel? 41 to the lb

15.0 cm Shrapnel contained 1,600 11.1 gm lead balls 41 to the lb

21 cm Shrapnel 135 150gm steel balls 3 to the lb & 170 26 gm lead balls 17 to the lb

John

Fantastic. Shell was larger than the 7.7.

I have my answer, thanks for that.

Plenty of sharpnel balls and bullets in Redan Ridge and Serre last week, bit of rain and spud harvesting works wonders.

Mick

[Max Poilu]

.

A colleague once explained to me the geological process whereby shrapnel gets 'squeezed' to the surface. I didn't really understand it then, so I can't re-hash the theory, but maybe steel balls behave differently in this process?

Seem to remember reading something about this - water collects under the relic, freezes and expands and pushes it up...? Gradually after many years and aided by the plough up she rises...

I may be completely mistaken though and would welcome input from the archeologist types here.

In many years and thousands of balls later I have rarely found steel balls and only 2 or so of the large lead variety (around twice the normal size).

[johnreed]

I have always understood that due to the centrifugal force of the earth spinning the shrapnel balls and also stones are always coming to the surface, I am always picking them up out of my flower beds, stones not shrapnel balls.

John

[RodB]

I seem to remember reading many years ago of British troops discovering they were being bombarded with bits of old clock workings... could be Middlebrook (1916 ?). The conclusion was that the Germany was already having to resort to using any scrap bits in the absense of the correct metallic raw materials. Or is this an example of how somebody mistook parts of a fuse for clock parts and the story took on a life of its own, perhaps encouraged by propagandists ?

Rod

[Hoplophile]

The German Army of the late war period was short of many things. Ironmongery, however, was not one of them. Indeed, the end of the war found the German Army had a sufficient number of artillery pieces to completely re-equip every battery in service, and plenty of first-class artillery ammunition. They also had lots of clockwork fuzes, which were both more reliable than old-fashioned powder-train fuzes, and easier to provide with safety features.

With these things in mind, I would relegate the 'bits of old clocks' story to the same file that contains the tale of corpses being processed for the sake of their component chemicals.

[auchonvillerssomme]

The only place I have found the larger balls in any quantity is near Roclincourt.

mick

[johnreed]

The 1904 Pattern 21 cm., german Shrapnel contained 135 steel bullets 3 to lb and 170 26 gm. lead bullets 17 to the lb, both of these were set in resin.

John

[Torrey McLean]

The only place I have found the larger balls in any quantity is near Roclincourt.

mick

Hello, Mick - The large-size lead shrapnel balls were French, used in 80mm, 90mm, and 95mm shrapnel shells for the M1895 de Bange system of artillery. [The 120mm and 155mm de Bange shrapnel shells used the regular-size balls.] The large shrapnel balls are most common on the 1914-1916 battlefields where the French army fought. Regards, Torrey

[johnreed]

With regards to Time and Percussion Fuze No 80 this fuze was a Krupp design and manufactured under licence by Vickers but of course during the war they were manufactued by various manufacturers. The first mechanical time fuze based on a captured Krupp mechanism this was a converted Dopp Z16 and was called the No 200 fuze, with a fuze length of 60 seconds. First trials took place in November 1917 but the fuze did not enter service before the war ended.

John

[Max Poilu]

With regards to Time and Percussion Fuze No 80 this fuze was a Krupp design and manufactured under licence by Vickers ...

John

And apparently Krupps later demanded £260,000 in licence payments for fuzes fired at the Germans by the British during the Great War. And we paid them £40,000...

[auchonvillerssomme]

Hello, Mick - The large-size lead shrapnel balls were French, used in 80mm, 90mm, and 95mm shrapnel shells for the M1895 de Bange system of artillery. [The 120mm and 155mm de Bange shrapnel shells used the regular-size balls.] The large shrapnel balls are most common on the 1914-1916 battlefields where the French army fought. Regards, Torrey

I'm not sure thats right. the British balls came in several sizes. 48 per pound, 41 per pound, 35 per pound and 22.5 per pound.

Mick