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Remembered Today:

1914 Star Rolls


dycer
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A Forum Colleague has kindly sent me a copy of a Page of the above relating to the 8th Royal Scots.Unfortunately I cannot post a copy.

It contains 12 entries compiled in January 1918 , all relating to Men who embarked for France on 5 November 1914.

3 were killed/wounded and there is no record of Clasps and Roses being sent.

4 were discharged time expired and 3 have received the Clasp.

2 appear to have survived the War and not applied for the Clasp.

1 discharged Para 392(xvi) KR and not applied.

1 survived and applied for the Clasp

1 transferred to another Regiment and applied for the Clasp.

Is it possible within one Battalion only Men who had been under fire could be identified thus entitling them to the Clasp and Roses or is it likely there is an administrative error that has preventd at least the Casualties being awarded the Clasp and Roses.I recall they were issued automatically to Casualties but I may be wrong.

The Clasps were issued between 1921 and 1928.

I should add that the MIC are the old style and have no pre-printed space for medal issue.Medal issue is recorded by rubber stamp on the top right of the MIC.

George.

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I would think 12 entries to be too small a sample to judge properly the granting of the clasp within a Battalion,there could have been a number of reasons why they did not qualify for its award,although they may have embarked for France 5th November 1914;they all may not have reached the front en bloc in time to qualify.

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I would think 12 entries to be too small a sample to judge properly the granting of the clasp within a Battalion,there could have been a number of reasons why they did not qualify for its award,although they may have embarked for France 5th November 1914;they all may not have reached the front en bloc in time to qualify.

Harry,

That's really the point of my question.

We are all aware of the fog of war at the time and can recognise that records may not be accurate.

Is it safe to assume,though,that the record keepers were able to distinguish between men who had been or not been under fire during the relevant period.

How was this done, by reference to the Man's Service Papers?

George

p.s. Just to expand a little.The History of the Battalion records that four Companies went into the line for the first time on 20 November with the remaining Companies at Fleurbaix.Prior to this the Battalion dug communication trenches and suffered its first casualty on 15th November.

I would assume that Fleurbaix was within shelling range and it appears that the whole Battalion was involved in the digging.I accept,of course,that some Men may have been left in Le Havre,etc.I also appreciate the Battalion War Diary may assist

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I think the main problem here is that the Clasp was in effect an afterthought [& instituted in October 1919,some 2 years 8 months after the Star] & whereas the 1914 Star Rolls would have been compiled from muster lists of men entering the theatre,as & when,by the time the Clasp was authorised,the men had either been KiA,DoW,Transferred,Discharged or Demobilised & dispersed throughout the land & it was reliant on good clerical work &/or personal application to ensure that all those who should have it got it,which obviously didn't always happen.

[As you said Casualties should have had the Clasp issued automatically]

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I have studied the star and clasps to another territorial battalion, the LRB, and whilst the Battalion as a whole qualified for the clasp about 20 men were in hospital when the Battalion entered the line in Nov. 14. I only found this out when checking a file of aLRB man who was subsequenty commissioned. I also understood that clasps had to be claimed. and presence confirmed by NCO etc, which would have been a bit difficult by the time the clasp was issued.. I recall an article in the OMRS Journal on this whole issue of entitlement, will try and find it. Incidentally there are 858 men on the 5th's roll but 3 more on the BWM roll; and 3 or 4 on the 14 star roll are down on the BWM roll as 1915 men.. This is probably because they were originaaly invalided and went out again in 1915.

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Harry/Ernie,

Thank you for your replies.

The information you supply is much as I thought.

I must stress that this is an academic question although I'm a bit disappointed that I cannot now prove one way or the other that my Uncles were entitled to the Clasp and Roses.Both were members of the Maxim Gun Section so on the "balance of probabilities" it is likely they saw front-line service before 22 November.Accepting Ernie's point, of course,that they may have landed in France, not liked the place and seen the M.O. for a spell in Hospital :lol:

Whether the Clasp and Roses should have been sent automatically,as they were both subsequently casualties,is open to debate as is the question why did the Family not pursue their issue in the 1920's?

It is tempting to "award" them the "Clasp and Roses" on the balance of probabilities and purchase some to store with their Stars.However,should their Medals ever come on the open market a serious researcher would soon discover that the awards are unsubstantiated.

I accept that one Page of the Medal Roll is not statistically valid but the page I refer to suggests that 60% of the Battalion were not under fire during the qualifying period.Clearly this % is at odds with the Battalion History and the information Ernie has found when researching the LRB.

George

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The LRB went over on 5 Nov as well and went into the trenches on 20 Nov, so just qualified for the clasp. Why not check the War Diary as I expect they too went into the line in half companies to learn their craft; I do not think you can draw any conclusions from the star roll as most of the LRB men are not entitled on this basis

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The LRB went over on 5 Nov as well and went into the trenches on 20 Nov, so just qualified for the clasp. Why not check the War Diary as I expect they too went into the line in half companies to learn their craft; I do not think you can draw any conclusions from the star roll as most of the LRB men are not entitled on this basis

Ernie,

One of my many to do tasks is to check the War Diary.

It would be nice to think it listed all the Men who saw front-line service before 22 November but I know "pigs may fly" :lol:

I'll just console myself by saying I have their Trios, which is more than many on the Forum can say.

Kind regards

George

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george I have located the article in the OMRS Journal, Sept 2002. The author has researched bar entitlement very thoroughly and concludedthat out of the 378000 stars issued, 132374 qualified for the clasp but were NOT issued with it. He assumes all the 8th RS were entitled because the Bn appears in AO Appendix.

Inorder to obtain a clasp; either the serving commander filled in form AO361 App B listing those then serving under his command ( in 1919 how many would this be!! ) or individuals should apply on the correct form, properly endorsed. The clasp was announed under AO361 in October 1919. All thre 5th London Battalions had been DISBANDED by then so no COs to do the paperwork leavyng it to the men to apply. Since 8 RS was also terrier, in the same boat??

The probability is that you men are entitled to the star, why not 'award' them a tailors copy, with a slider ( which command a price but are clearly self awarded ) to avoud future difficulties?

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Ernie,

As the 8th had two CO's killed and one wounded by 1918 I think it unlikely the last CO would know who was entitled :lol:

The Cadre returned Home on 30 April 1919 so yes, no Battalion in October.

I take your point about a tailors copy but to be honest the Medals were never mounted and still "live" in the envelopes they were delivered in.

I'll assume they are both entitled to the Clasp and Roses but as their Father,surviving Brother and Sisters never had the Medals mounted I'll leave them undisturbed in accordance with their wishes.

Thank you for the information and trust it assists other Colleagues in their research.

George

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