Ken Lees Posted 1 November , 2003 Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Whilst I was in Belgium last week, I tried to find the ground over which the 9th Bn. King's Liverpool Regt (165 Bde, 55th Div.) attacked on 31st July 1917. Unfortunately, part of the initial advance, and the German front-line trenches, appear to have been built over by the N19 dual-carriageway, but the rest is still fields and farms. Does anyone have, or know of, a map which shows the current names/locations of the farms in this area. The area I am looking at is just outside Wieltje (Trench Map 28NW2). The map I have is Edition 5a with trenches corrected to 1-4-17. Would I be able to acquire one from nearer to the date of the attack? The fields I am most interested in are just south of the Wieltje road and the Bn attacked in a north-easterly direction, parallel to this road. I would like to be able to place the old and new maps over each other to establish as accurately as possible the positions of the various features. And finally, can anyone tell me anything about the three concrete structures near Wieltje? If you drive north-east, through the village (or past it), under the bridge carrying the N19, then immediately turn right and follow the road for a few hundred metes it bends sharply to the left. In the fields on the right there they are, close to the road. Any advice would be gratefully received. Ken +++ researching the 9th Bn. King's Liverpool Regt in the Great War +++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 1 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2003 p.s. This is the general area ( I thought I'd added this map to my original post) Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 1 November , 2003 Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Ken, 1. I can scan the part of a modern map corresponding to your 1917 map. (But there won't be any farm names on it off course.) Could you contact me off Forum so that I can send the scan to your email address ? (As I can send no attachments via the Forum). 2. "three concrete structures" ? I know where you mean, but I don't recall ... I will ask someone who lives at St. Julian and who may know. (I know that nothing is marked on Major Holt's map.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 1 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Thanks Aurel, I have sent you an e-mail. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Missinne Posted 1 November , 2003 Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Hello Ken, I am the one "who lives at St. Julian and who may know". You can find a little more information (only in Dutch ) on The list of concrete shelters between Wieltje and St-Julien. Click on 3/4/5 for information concerning the three concrete structures on the 'Cambrai Reserve'. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 1 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Hello Robert, Thank you for your reply. I have looked at the website you mentioned and they are certainly the structures I meant. Unfortunately, my Dutch is worse than my Flemish, which is worse than my French, so I am still no wiser when it comes to their original purpose, or the date of construction, use etc. Thanks again, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 (...) Unfortunately, my Dutch is worse than my Flemish, which is worse than my French, so I am still no wiser when it comes to their original purpose, or the date of construction, use etc. (...) Ken, No problem. I'll translate the relevant info. Tomorrow. Too late now. (Almost 2 a.m.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 I am hoping to retrace another part of the same Divisional attack on my 2004 school battlefields tour, focussing on 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers of 164th Brigade. Any info you could share would be much appreciated. I am starting detailed planning now that I have returned from the 2003 tour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 2 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2003 Aurel, Thanks for the map. Mark, I have sent you an e-mail in response to your post. One thing that I didn't mention is that I am hoping to get copies of the relevant sections of the Divisional & Brigade war diaries, but I have no idea when I will be able to make my first trip to the PRO (NA). If you are a regular there, perhaps we can come to some arrangement with regard to the material held there and that in the Liverpool archives. Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 Ken, About the three concrete structures. This is the most relevant info translated from Robert's inventory (described and measured by himself and Roger Verbeke of the IFF Doc. Centre) : Location : Sint-Jan, Corner Roeselaarsestraat & Tentestraat, left from the road toward the motorway A19. They were in the communication trench between Cambrai Reserve and Cambrai Trench. All semi-underground - Cambrai Reserve 1 (nearest to the motorway) 2 rooms ; approx. 2.07 m x 1.82 m ; separate entrances backside orientation : approx. west frontside 6,75 m ; back : 6,65 m ; left side 3,50 m ; right : 3,47 m ; height 1,20 - Cambrai 2 (in the middle) like 1, but 3 rooms ; connected ; 3 entrances orientation approx. east frontside 9,20 ; left 3,40 ; height 1,40 ; roof 1,07 - Cambrai 3 (furthest from motorway) different from 1 and 2 ; probably command post 3 rooms ; 2 entrances in back corners ; 1 in backside orientation approx. west front 8,05 ; left 4,25 ; height 1,30 ; roof 0,92 Originally in the immediate vicinity there were over 30 similar constructions. All captured on 31 July 1917 (first phase 3rd Ypres) Hope this is of some use. (Sorry I abridged it.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 Ken, I forgot this : In one of these shelters Captain Noël Chavasse (2 VCs) installed a dressing station. He was wounded in this area, taken to Vlamertinge (Brandhoek), where he died on 4 August 1917. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 Ken-Sorry, I haven't visited the PRO for 17 years! I am much better poised for Liverpool unfortunately for your research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 4 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Aurel, Thank you for the translation. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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