Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 7 September , 2006 Share Posted 7 September , 2006 fort2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 7 September , 2006 Share Posted 7 September , 2006 Tuna, quote: seems to me that these two forts are cut frae the same cloth Yes, indeed! Those are two remarkable photographs; the angle of the shot is almost exactly the same. Where did you find the first one? It is truly remarkable what the French masons achieved between April and November and how well they provided for their HQ There is a strong temptation to say that the three photographs post # 1, post # 9 and post # 25 represent successive stages in the same stroll around the castle at Sedd-el-Bahr. The cast of actors is certainly the same; they are even in the same order, allowing for the narrow way past the shells in picture/post # 9 I think that we should split those beers between us; see you in Sept '07? Best regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 7 September , 2006 Share Posted 7 September , 2006 michael,i came acroos the first photo while searching for information on kitchener`s visit ta gallipoli the url is http://www.postcardman.net/134364.jpg ps: it will be my pleasure to meet you in person regards tuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 7 September , 2006 Share Posted 7 September , 2006 Thanks again Tuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plummed Goose Posted 8 September , 2006 Share Posted 8 September , 2006 totally convinced that pic 2 is the fort in Seddül Bahir. Thanks Tuna for that very interesting pic !! But pic 1 remains in Mudros to me !!! (This is not because I want to get half of my bet back but the buildings in pic one just don't fit in Seddül Bahir !!) eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Newman Posted 8 September , 2006 Share Posted 8 September , 2006 Another great thread!! I'm with Eric on this!!! Even if it does cost us a pint! When I first saw the pictures and took them with me to Gallipoli to try and match I was convinced pic 1 was not at Gallipoli and certainly was unlikely to be any use for 'Then and Now' as not only do the buildings not 'fit' but the streets looked far too wide. That said I remember speaking to someone who not only said how different the area looked between April and November in terms of appearance but also that since the allies leaving, the place has only got worse (their words not mine!!) so perhaps it is possible that buildings of that ilk did once exist there but... The second shot I had high hopes for! It looked right for the inside of the fort/castle and enough distinguishing features to get the perfect 'now' shot with the added human interest. Alas I never did find that perfect marry up, I did include shots from inside the castle walls and these were taken when looking for that elusive match. The other thing that always struck me was that most unmistakably genuinely on the peninsula shots of 'famous visitors' always seemed to be soldiers snapshots, with official pictures always being far more dubious in location. Now whether that is pure coincidence or the good old spin/propaganda machine getting 'better' shots in 'easier' positions I don't know. It also extended to many, many other shots. There are some very well known shots of soldeiers 'visiting and tending graves on the peninsula'. Alas the rocks behind are all wrong and I was immediately sceptical, it turned out when tracing some of the names you could just make out that they were on the islands. It really is a minefield and I have been caught out and will continue to be but its all part of lifes rich tapestry! At the end of the day discussing such matters and debating who's right and wrong helps to keep the campaign alive and more importantly those who served and fought there, and that really is the plus of all such debates. Regards to all Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 8 September , 2006 Share Posted 8 September , 2006 Jonathan, Eric, Michael, Tuna, Martin, Brian & Steve N ... you'll have to wait until tomorrow but I have finally found the photo I was thinking off that proves beyond reasonable doubt (I hope) that the first pic is infact inside the Old fort at Sedd-el-Bahr. Eric, I will be over in just over two weeks so get the pints of Efes Pilsen cooled and waiting on that bar for me. The suspense continues ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted 9 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 9 September , 2006 This has been a most intriguing thread! Thank you all for contributions thus far. Michael – I await your ‘fait accomplis’ photo… Steve – ‘At the end of the day discussing such matters and debating who's right and wrong helps to keep the campaign alive and more importantly those who served and fought there, and that really is the plus of all such debates.’ Well said my friend. My grandfather served with the RDF in Gallipoli, right here at V-Beach and in Gully Ravine. I wish so many times I might have had the chance to speak to him regarding his experiences. Alas, I was only nine when he passed. Fabulous work Tuna, your photo in post #25 is the clincher, Kitchener was at Sedd-el-Bahr! As you say, the photo you found is the definitive proof. Although arguments to the contrary are persuasive, I must still agree with Michael in post #27, in that the 3 photos ‘represent successive stages in the same stroll around the castle at Sedd-el-Bahr’. Still amazed at the structural integrity of the buildings in the photo from my first post, so, until photographically proven otherwise, I hold to the fact that is due to the ‘shadow’ or sheltering effect of the old castle Sedd-el-Bahr from the low trajectory of the battleships guns whose bombardment mainly came in from the south and southeast directions. This photo (#1) likely portrays a location near the castle's north or northwest area, perhaps a short way into the village (crenulated wall of castle in background)? Wish I could join you all for the refreshments ‘on-site’. Be sure to enjoy one for me. Cheers, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 hi friends heres another photo of the castle taken from a different angle the building is visible regards tuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 tuna, Well done to find this photo - I think this is the defining evidence. S-U-B castle it is. (Unless someone knows otherwise......!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 quote: "Michael – I await your ‘fait accomplis’ photo…" I rather think that it is Tuna who has just delivered the coup de grace I wish to second Horatio's vote of thanks to Tuna Once again he has come up trumps! Nevertheless, Steve's picture is also eagerly awaited According to my reading Kitchener's visit to the peninsula was 12th-14th Nov '15 He visited Anzac and then went on to Suvla I would guess that his visit to Helles followed, rather than preceded, the other two; can any one confirm this? Best regards to all Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 Michael, A possible answer to your visit timing query. The following appears in the diary of the Drake MO, who was being evacuated on a hospital ship sailing from Cape Helles to Lemnos on Friday 12 November: "... sailed for Lemnos at 1 p.m. Soon after leaving, two destroyers passed us going in the opposite direction at full speed. The front one had several staff officers on board including one who looked like Kitchener. ... Got into Mudros about 4.45 p.m. and anchored in outer harbour. Hear Kitchener lunched here yesterday aboard the Headquarters Ship Aragon." If his observation is correct, Kitchener went to Helles first. Carlyon in his "Gallipoli" states that Kitchener visited Anzac on the afternoon of 13 November. H2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 Horation, so Kitchener at Helles pm 12th & am 13th Nov then Many thanks for the correction on that point regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 Michael, Also found that Bean recorded "After inspecting the Helles position on November 12th from a point above the beach, he came on the two following days to Anzac and Suvla." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 We've already mentioned a few of the names of Kitchener's tour party I suppose that the French General is Brulard? I wonder if any of our French Pals is following this thread and can comment? regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 i think the name of another officer who accompanied lord kitchener was Sir ALEXANDER GORE ARKWRIGHT HORE-RUTHVEN ? ps: michael, thanks alot for paying me a compliment, regards tuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 Here we go ... The reverse of this photo has pencilled .... Inside Sedd el Bahr Fort. The village is reached through the main (north) gateway to the right outside the picture. The gateway seen on the left leads onto V Beach. It was outside this gateway that General Gouroud was wounded The second photo is a modern 'Then and Now' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 Then and Now ... for comparison note the bricked in arches to the right, one beneath a flight of stairs. Alas the building in question is no longer there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 And a slightly different view ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 (edited) Well done Steve Many thanks for digging that out Best regards Michael PS: Enjoy your trip in two weeks time and if you manage to bring back some more pics well then................. Edited 9 September , 2006 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 m at a loss for words steve, thanks for posting the pics,which really shed more light on the problem regards tuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plummed Goose Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 unbelievable ... I would have given more than two beer ... luckely I didn't !!! eric PS : This is really interesting and exciting ... anybody else with a "difficult" pic ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 9 September , 2006 Share Posted 9 September , 2006 unbelievable ... I would have given more than two beer ... luckely I didn't !!! eric PS : This is really interesting and exciting ... anybody else with a "difficult" pic ??? Eric - a question of a different sort. Last time I was at Gallipoli I think there was talk that the Fort was going to be made into some sort of Heritage Centre. Has this progressed at all? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 11 September , 2006 Share Posted 11 September , 2006 Please see Martin Will's post # 4 above and my reply in post # 5 Martin, I think that I may owe you an apology! My computer technique is not good enough to put up a side-by-side comparison here in this post but I have done it on my own screen and what do you know? Steve's picture in # 44 does look a lot like the picture in post # 9 here especially when you look at the broken masonry of the 2nd window from the left on the upper storey. We may have to revisit that other thread as this building is clearly inside the fort at Sedd-el-Bahr and not as I have previously ventured "sited behind Fort No.1; on some maps this building is also referred to as a hospital" What do you think? regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eceabat Posted 18 September , 2006 Share Posted 18 September , 2006 Pals, Re the debate over the location of the old building in the background of the photo of Kitchener’s visit to the Peninsula. As has been confirmed, it was in the grounds of the castle. It’s exact location was to the right of the main entrance to the castle, against the wall that over looks V Beach as shown on Brian's map (though interestingly,there was another building in the centre of the castle not shown). I confirmed that the building was the right one with Sahin Aldogan, one of Turkey’s leading experts on the campaign and probably the best man regarding terrain. He also informed me that a recent archaeological dig within the grounds of the castle, a part of preliminary work to restore the fortification, has uncovered the foundations of the building in question. It appears that the building survived the war but was later demolished. Some of the stone was used to rebuild houses in the village. Until some years ago, the castle remained an active Turkish military facility. The site where the building was located was used as a football and volleyball pitch for the garrison. In March this year, the Turkish authorities put in place a diorama depicting the landing at V Beach on 25 April. The diorama included a fairly accurate depiction of the castle, including our burnt out building. All we need is a crusty old Field Marshal and a few gawking French soldiers to complete the image. I reckon we can put this one to bed. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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