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Remembered Today:

Lord Kitchener at Sedd-el-Bahr


Orion

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Greetings Gallipoli fans,

Came across this photo of Lord Kitchener visiting Cape Helles in November of 1915.

H10352 Summary: Sedd-el-Bahr, Turkey. November 1915. Lord Kitchener, Chief of the British General Staff, walking through a courtyard accompanied by the French Army Commander in Chief and other senior officers during the Dardanelles Campaign.

Note the caption states the location as Sedd-el-Bahr. Just where exactly in Sedd-el-Bahr

is this ‘well protected’ location?

It appears that the ‘courtyard’ is of cobblestones. In the background to the extreme upper right appears to be a crenulated wall, perhaps that of the old Sedd-el-Bahr castle. I am amazed at the structural integrity of several of the buildings. In fact sever appear unscathed! I was under the assumption that the village of Sedd-el-Bahr was pummeled to ruins by bombardment form the low trajectory guns of the British fleet.

I suspect the photo shows a location in the village of Sedd-el-Bahr directly behind the old Sedd-el-Bahr castle. Located to the landward side of the old castle adjacent to V-Beach, these buildings are in the ‘shadow’ of the crenulated wall of the castle and therefore were sheltered from the low trajectory bombardment from battleships lying offshore. If this is the case then no wonder the small company of Turkish soldiers defending the village were able to hang on for as long as they did. There were obviously some areas in this sector that were very well protected from bombardment!

Do these buildings still exist today in the village of Sedd-el-Bahr?

Hoping someone can affirm or refute my assumptions.

Cheers,

Brian

post-4774-1157249238.jpg

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It will be interesting to find out where ... hopefully Eric can find the answer. My initial thought was that it isnt at Sedd-el-Bahr although Helles was in the French sector and there are French soldiers in the background of the photo suggesting the French sector, so maybe.

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It looks a little like the "other fort" that has been pictured and debated on another thread but I would like to be assured that the attreibution is wholly correct.

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You are right Martin; it does look a little like the 'other fort'

but I think that the number of windows in the right-wing [not enough] plus the crenellated structure behind that wing, suggest that it is in fact somewhere else

best regards

Michael

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To be different I would guess the outer fort at Sedd-el-Bahr. I am sure I have a similar photo in my collection that shows the same building, the remnants are still there today ... or were last year.

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It's definitely NOT Kum Kale - that was in Turkish hands in November 1915! The space outside also looks far too wide for any average Turkish village of the period - not to mention too well laid out!

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Thanks to you all so far for comments and ideas.

Krithia, would you be able to hunt down that photo you might have?

By outer fort do you mean Old castle Sedd-el-Bahr?

Here is the other photo I found of Kitchener at the 'ruins of a fortress at Gallipoli'. Again I believe it is the old castle fortress of Sedd-el-Bahr adjacent to V-Beach - but no proof, just a hunch. No visual clues as to exactly where this photo was taken?

post-4774-1157417697.jpg

G00572 November 1915 Summary: Lord Kitchener among the ruins of a fortress at Gallipoli. On the left are seen shells abandoned by the Turks when they were driven from the position. Walking behind, are Colonel Sir Henry McMahon, High Commissioner for Egypt, and the French Commander in Chief.

Credit line: Admiralty Official Photograph

Cheers,

Brian

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Guest gumbirsingpun

well, the shape of the buildings as well as the fort in the photo can give chapter and verse for that the picture was not taken in seddulbahr,the chances are that the pic might have of been taken in mudros,

a penny for your thoughts?

regards

tuna

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The second photo reminds me of the steep path down to the camber. I made a mistake in my earlier comment Brian, I meant the inner-fort at Sedd-el-Bahr, the Old Castle. I am no closer to the photo I am thinking of so please bear with me.

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Hi,

If my memory serves me correctly, Mudros does not have a fort/ruined castle.

Mudros comprised a small Greek port on the Mediterranean island of Lemnos...The harbour at Lemnos was certainly broad enough to sustain British and French warships, although it was recognised at an early stage that there was a potentially troublesome absence of suitable military facilities.

[from: http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/mudros.htm]

see a photo of the harbour at: http://www.anzacday.org.au/spirit/hero/images/24b.jpg

Still strongly believe this is the old fort = castle of Sedd-el-Bahr - the photo captions tell us it is a fortress on the gallipoli peninsula (although captions have been eroneous before!)

Krithia, I agree regarding the location of my second photo 'Sedd-el-Bahr- fortress wall'. Here is a modern view of the side wall of the old castle Sedd-el-Bahr, (see http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Bosforo5.html), the eastern side which is the side facing Morto Bay and the Camber. Notice however that the structures are similar but not identicle.

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Bosforo5.html

Hmmm where was Kitchener standing when these photos were taken? - Eric, where are you? We need some on site inspection of Sedd-el-Bahr castle.

Cheers,

Brian

post-4774-1157506860.jpg

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Just back from a trip to Istanbul ...

After a first glance ...

pic 1 : DEFINITELY not in the Gallipoli : It is not possible that there would have been a buiding left in such a perfect state still after the 26th April 1915 .... leave alone November 1915. My best guess would be Mudros.

pic 2 : No idea ... but he is again accompanied by the same French officer which makes me think it was again in Mudros, probably on the same day.

eric

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I have nothing to take us forward here, but only further hints of the possibilities

re Eric's suggestion above - There is a photograph of Kitchener at Mudros on 11th November 1915, which is reproduced in Steel & Hart's book 'Defeat at Gallipoli'

but alas while it shows him with Birdwood and various others

there are no Frenchmen, no buildings and no castle walls to be seen

re Brian's post # 9 - Three of the figures in this second photograph also appear in the first

so it would seem fair to assume that both were taken on the same occasion

re the location - Our Pal, Steve Newman has a photograph in his 'Gallipoli then and now'

which shows the inside of 'the old fort at Sedd-el-Bahr'

and it includes a very similar line of shells against a wall

however apart from that one fact, I can see no similarity with the Kitchener photograph;

even the wall is different

Sorry, but like you I must keep looking

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I incline to the Mudros theory. The HO states that "Munro, Maxwell and Sir Henry McMahon the High Commissioner in Egypt, were all to hurry north to meet Lord Kitchener at Mudros". I cannot think that Kitchener would have dragged all this team of grandees with him on his post-conference visits to the fronts at Helles and Anzac. I cannot find a picture of Kitchener on his battlefield visits with other than the local commander (e.g. Birdwood at Anzac) although I believe Maxwell went with him to Anzac- but Anzac is a non-starter anyway. Furthermore, I agree that the undamaged buildings in the photo cannot be at Cape Helles. In summary: Kum Kale - impossible; Anzac - impossible; Helles - very unlikely/impossible; Mudros - possible but which building? Final though - Kitchener went on to Salonika - did he take McMahon? The French were also there. Could the photo be Salonika? I love a good mystery!

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horatio2's picture of French soldiers gives a good impression of the building style in Mudros ... To me another point to stick to Mudros as the houses in Lord K. pic and the French's soldiers pic are very simular.

Seddül-Bahir was (and still is) a small Turkish village which would not have this type of buildings but just one floor farmhouses. To see this Mudros type of houses one would have to go to Çanakkale, Gelibolu and possibly a few buildings in Eceabat.

I have also attached a pic from inside the fort at Seddül-Bahir to show the damage. Unfortunately I don't have any source for it but we can most probably accept it was taken during the campaign and I think it comes from the Illustrated War Magazine.

eric

post-7070-1157617453.jpg

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With all due respect to my friends Horatio & Eric, on balance, I am going to stay with the Sedd-el-Bahr option

Although the caption writer got Kitchener's office wrong [he was Minister for War not CoGS] I don't think that he would have made a mistake with the location.

Even though Kitchener, his entourage and some French were at Mudros on 11 Nov '15, I am dissuaded from this option by the apparent lack of any building to provide the crenellated wall in the picture's background. Also, if I am right and the second picture was taken at the same time, then where in Mudros did the shells come from? Before the conflict Mudros was held by the Greeks and as far as I know it was neither fortified nor provided with heavy artillery.

This leaves the problem of the apparently undamaged buildings in Sedd-el-Bahr. Firstly I am not convinced that they are undamaged. The doorway on the left is certainly the worse for wear and we cannot see clearly either the upper storey of the main building or the back of the roof of the right wing. It may very well be that the main building is roofless and that could account for what seems to be a bright light (sky?) showing above the doorway.

We have all seen photographs of the village of Sedd-el -Bahr in ruins and it certainly suffered severely during the various bombardments, but these two photographs were taken six-and-a-half months after the landings. I have come across at least one report of the village being scoured for useful wood and what about the breakwaters built at 'V' Beach and at Lancashire Landing? In this case I have no information as to where the rubble came from, however I would suggest that the village's ruined buildings provided a much easier option than facing the problem of beginning a quarry operation under fire. Yes, this is all speculation but I think that it is fair to imagine that Sedd-el-Bahr in mid-November 1915 was a much tidier place than it was at the end of April. It was also the French HQ, and it is clearly the French who are showing Kitchener around the place, with the Brits taking a back seat.

The attached photograph is an aerial view dated January 1916, just a couple of months after Kitchener's visit. I think it shows well defined streets made up of buildings, many of which are still roofed.

AerialViewSedd-el-BahrJan16.jpg

Wouldn't it be helpful if we had an ex-air force type on the forum who could give us some expert advice on the interpretation of photographs, or perhaps someone from……. what's that place in Virginia?

Keep hunting.

Michael

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The left of Eric's two pictures, in post # 18 above, has been cropped by the publisher and has lost its right-hand third.

The extended (original?) version appears in Steve Newman's book and shows the line of shells which I mentioned in my posts # 15 & # 19 above and which is very similar to those seen in Brian's post # 9

regards

Michael

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Michael,

I have no further arguments to add ... But I volunteer to bet a couple of Efes Pilsen !!! Mudros to me !!!

eric

PS 1 : A question : Would the French who had already pulled out a Division and who sent several Divisions earmarked for Gallipoli to Saloniki still be acting as "hosts" in the fort. Don't know, it is a question.

PS 2 : Michael, going through Steve Newmans book came across a interesting pic ... Look out for a long forgotten thread popping up again ...

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Eric, I'm always happy to wager a pint or two

Your question is a very good one and the exact details of the French switch from Gallipoli to Salonika are not known to me

however, while Kitchener's visit was in mid-November, I think that the RND took over part of the French line & billets between December 11th to 17th

and the last of the French infantry left the peninsula on the night of January 1st/2nd, 1916

re PS.2; Is this what Martin mentions in his post # 4 above?

[now read your post on the 'Turkish Line' - so ignore this remark]

Don't worry, if I am wrong I will be happy to buy,

but the most optimistic date which I have heard mentioned up to now is Sept. '07 at the earliest.

very best regards

Michael

Edited by michaeldr
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but the most optimistic date which I have heard mentioned up to now is Sept. '07 at the earliest.

If that is the case I might see you at Erol's :D

ps I drink the same as Eric :P

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