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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Afrikaans inscription on headstone


Matt Dixon

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I recently got a picture in Cinq Rues cemetery of a CWGC headstone written totally in Afrikaans.

Was this normal for the CWGC, or would it have been at the request of the family. I have seen Chinese and Indian inscriptions. Do the pals know of other languages on headstones?

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I recently got a picture in Cinq Rues cemetery of a CWGC headstone written totally in Afrikaans.

Was this normal for the CWGC, or would it have been at the request of the family. I have seen Chinese and Indian inscriptions. Do the pals know of other languages on headstones?

Although this is WW2, there are a number of South African graves at Monte Cassino with text in Afrikaans. As it is a while since I have seen them I don't know about being written totally in Afrikaans, although they could be.

Although I have not seen them the WW1 South African graves could be written in Dutch rather than Afrikaans?

No doubt some Dutch or Flemish speaking members will be posting about this but, in my collection I have a number of "Springbok" South African cap badges.

IIRC When I lived in Holland I was told that the ones in Dutch "Eendracht maacht macht" are WW1, but by WW2 they had gone over to the Afrikaans "Endrag maak maag".

This is all from memory. Am I correct, or deluded?

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"Eendracht maakt macht" is indeed Dutch.

"Eendrag maak mag" is South African.

That on Great War headstones Dutch is used, is no surprise. It was not until 1925 that in South Africa Dutch was replaced by South African as the official language (apart from English), though it had been the every day language for a long time.

And since this is about languages.... (And I know this will sound as if it comes from a schoolteacher, but ... I used to be one.) Most of you call our language in Flanders : "Flemish". OK, it cannot be that wrong, since many people here too call it "Vlaams". But actually our official language is Dutch, the same language as in the Netherlands. Only with a different accent. And I have to admit : if there is another thing that is typical of our language in Flanders, it is that many people keep on speaking a dialect.

Sorry for being a bit pedantic. Just had got to get it off my chest... ;)

Aurel

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The use of Afrikaans (or Dutch for WW1) is not surprising as South Africa is a founder member of CWGC. The same applies to French for Canadian headstones. Use of their own language could not be barred from headstones.

Even though English was the 'preferred' language you will find them with Personal Inscriptions in some other languages including Latin.

Naturally, the headstones of certain Imperial troops appear in their own languages - Chinese, the Indian languages, Arabic etc.

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There is an inscription in Danish on a CEF headstone in Passchendaele New British Cemetery... I have seen inscriptions in Hewbrew... and Beppo above is correct about the South African graves in Italy from WW2; many of them are all in Afrikaans.

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Aurel

You are are not on your own. I live in Coventry, just a few miles from the traditional centre of England. We have our own accent and local sayings. Twenty miles to the north is Birmingham - again its own distinct accent and linguisitic traditions. A few miles to the north again is the Black Country, centered on Wolverhampton, same thing.

No wonder recruiting officers and clerks wrote down things incorrectly on soldiers attestation forms.

I appreciate this has gone a bit off post , but I wonder if this has affected other forum members documentry research from whatever country they are from?

Terry Reeves

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Most of you call our language in Flanders : "Flemish".

Aurel - I suppose the question for me is one of politeness. Which would you prefer that we call it - Flemish or Dutch. Again, do people describe describe themselves as Flemish or Belgian? The same question for me as well - am I English or British? And I suppose the answer is I'm both - depends on the circumstances.

And I'm often glad we communicate in this way. I can never understand folk from Terry's neck of the woods.

John

B)

(PS; only a joke, Terry.)

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(...) Which would you prefer that we call it - Flemish or Dutch.

Again, do people describe describe themselves as Flemish or Belgian? The same question for me as well - am I English or British? And I suppose the answer is I'm both - depends on the circumstances. (...)

John,

Here I am, half past midnight (Belgian time), invited by you to answer a question for which it would normally take an hour or two for me to explain.

"Flemish or Dutch ?" From an academic and linguistic point of view I would say : Definitely Dutch. For the reason I explained in a previous posting in this thread (our official language in Flanders is the same as in the Netherlands, so why give it a different name ?). And also because a "Flemish language" simply does not exist. If you ask someone in Flanders to speak Flemish, then all he can do is speak his dialect. And my dialect is so different from the dialect spoken in Ghent or Antwerp or Louvain or Hasselt that we hardly understand each other !

If "Flemish" as a language exists, then the word can only be used as a common denominator for all these different Flemish dialects. Speaking a common Flemish language different from Dutch (and : writing it !) simply is impossible. (Though as I said the way we speak our Dutch language in Flanders is slightly different from the way Dutch is spoken in the Netherlands. Something like the difference between British and American English, or Portugese in Portugal and Brazil.)

That is the theory. And that is what I always said to my students. And then I retired and found myself in the company of many British visitors here in Ypres, and to my amazement (and "horror") I heard myself call our (official) language ... "Flemish" ! To be honest : because I preferred not to confuse them. And also : because I knew that if I said : "Dutch ! Not Flemish !" they would ask me to explain the difference. And that the next question would be about the relationship between our two communities (Dutch speaking in Flanders, French speaking in the southern half of Belgium.) And then : how's the situation in Brussels ? And : how do you manage politically ? And culturally ? And economically ? And ... And ... Questions that in the first place would produce a deep sigh. ("How can I make a foreigner understand something that we ourselves hardly understand ?...")

And so I go on calling my language "Flemish" more frequently (hoping that my former pupils don't hear me !), in order to please our British guests. And I find myself saying "Plugstreet" instead of "Ploegsteert", and "Whitesheet" instead of "Wijtschate" and "Vermicelli" instead of "Voormezele". Sooner or later I will even say "God Wears Velvet" instead of "Godewaarsvelde" !...

Whether I feel Flemish or Belgian ? I'm so glad you answer the question yourself : English or British ? Let me say this : When French speaking Justine Henin plays the final in a tennis tournament, I hope she wins, and if she does I am proud. There is however one exception. One occasion that I'm not a fan : when her opponent is Kim Clijsters ...

I'm afraid that Forumnists clicking on this posting hoping to learn something about the Great War will be disappointed. Sorry !...

But it's "Mattpdixon" who is to blame ! If he hadn't started all this with his Afrikaans ! :angry:

Aurel

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Interesting that no-one has reflected on the use of Welsh for inscriptions - I seem to notice this more and more on the battlefields. I guess it's hardly surprising given the extent to which many in the Welsh units (and others) came from a purely Welsh speaking background.

By contrast I have come across very few inscriptions in Gaelic.

What other languages have been used - apart from the one musical inscription much debated in a previous thread?

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the use of Welsh for inscriptions - I seem to notice this more and more on the battlefields. I guess it's hardly surprising given the extent to which many in the Welsh units (and others) came from a purely Welsh speaking background.

Martin

I have not yet come across stones in Flanders with Welsh inscriptions. I would be interested to hear more about examples.

Slightly off topic but linked with the theme of language; I read a Welsh newspaper account of 1916, in which Sgt. Major Price wrote a letter home describing how during an attack on the Turks north of the Suez canal, they captured a German who to their amazement spoke Welsh. He had lived and worked in Llandudno until he was called up to the German Army.

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Aurel - thanks for the clarification, mate.

I've always be interested to know. I have a brother-in-law who comes from Mallorca and there seems to be the same language issues there between Castilian (Spanish) and Catalan languages. And as you have with Flemish/Dutch, his dialect of Catalan is different form the Catalan of the mainland

John

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I have heard it suggested that when the AEF came over in 1917 some of the Doughboys were surprised to find that the Tommies or Limeys could speak English.... B)

Tim

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I was fascinated by Aurel's posting on the Dutch/Flemish language and it raised the question " What do they speak in Flanders Language Valley"?

As for Americans - they still don't know we speak English over here. At least that is the impression I get when I visit America.

:D

Garth

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(... ) I have not yet come across stones in Flanders with Welsh inscriptions. I would be interested to hear more about examples. (...)

Hi Myrtle,

A few years ago an acquaintance made a list of the Welsh epitaphs in the CWCG cemeteries here in Boezinge (north of Ypres) : Bard Cottage Cem., Artillery Wood Cem., Welsh Cem., Talana Farm Cem.

There are 22 Welsh epitaphs (and 1 Gaelic).

Should you want the list, contact me off Forum and I will email the list to you in attachment.

I also have the translation of the epitaphs in English. And ... in Dutch. (Unfortunately not in ... Flemish. ;)

Aurel

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I have heard it suggested that when the AEF came over in 1917 some of the Doughboys were surprised to find that the Tommies or Limeys could speak English.... B)

Tim

hi tim,

Any suggestion of the reaction of the Tommies when many of the Doughboys couldn't speak English? :lol:

Take care,

Neil

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Aurel,

My fault!!!! You should have gone to bed earlier my friend! :)

That said, a most interesting reply.

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