Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 If anyone asks me what I think was a classic dogfight of WW1, I would say when Werner Voss was shot down by Lt Arthur Rhys Davids. For WW2 it would be Werner Moelders shooting down Hugh Reilly in 1940, who was an American masquerading as a Candian. What are other people's views? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 Ian, How about W.G.Barker's VC action in late October,1918? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 One of my favourite battles is that of Lanoe Hawker v Manfred von Richthofen. MvR was an up and coming pilot with 10 victories to his name. Hawker had won a VC, and also received a DSO for bombing the airship sheds at Gontrode. So both men were heroes, always in the national press of their respective countries. Neither man was able to outwit the other. The duel, which had started at 9000 feet gradually decended to 1500 feet. Hawker was over the enemy lines. He was running out of fuel and he had a head wind against him, which would make it difficult to get back home in a speedy fashion. It has been described as a game of chess, which lasted around 20 minutes - a long, long time in combat for this period. MvR did everything he could to keep Hawker from heading West, all the time both planes were getting lower and lower. At last, when the planes were at 150 feet from the ground, Hawker made a dash for the British Lines. MvR had, by now, shot 900 rounds at Hawker. But with Hawker having made a predictable manouvre, MvR was able to get a 'bead' on the British DH2. Major Lanoe George Hawker, VC, DSO - Royal Engineers, and 24 Sqn, crashed 250 yards east of Luisenhoff Farm and was buried by German Grenadiers. It was this victory that effectively raised MvR profile among his peers. The effect on the morale of British pilots can be imagined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchwalker Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 the classic one is earlier dogfights where men are useing revolvers,12 bore shotguns and bricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 One of my favourite battles is that of Lanoe Hawker v Manfred von Richthofen. This is one that has always fascinated me; I read somewhere that Hawker actually ran out of ammunition, and the Baron realising this, knew it would end in an easy kill. Have you heard this? It seems to support the principal of him being a cold-hearted killer; perhaps more propaganda, than truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 It seems to support the principal of him being a cold-hearted killer; perhaps more propaganda, than truth? I must be honest. I had not heard that Hawker was out of ammo. But how would MvR have known, anyway?? My understanding was that, for the most part, MvR postitioned himself so that Hawker was always to the side or in in front of Albatross DII Nr 491/16. In other words, Hawker was always running - and had little opportunity to fire back (ammo or no ammo). I beleive that Richthofen's reputation as a cold-hearted killer came about from the tactics he used. In many cases, he would 'pick off' the slowest (or last) plane in a flight/squadron. In the wild, a wolf/lion/cheetah etc always goes for the 'easy' kill - where the odds are stacked in favour of the hunter, with little risk of injury from their prey. It just makes me think that MvR used the best tactics on the day, and appeared to have a better understanding of weather, geography, blind spots - and better appreciated the limitations/characteristics of the Allied aeroplanes and their crew(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 Yes, I'd broadly agree with that; was interested to read your thoughts, though - thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Smith Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 Perhaps being Australian I can be accused of being jingoistic but Robert little's combat on April 7, 1917 at 18.45. Little was patroling alone in a Sopwith Tripe and was set upon by 11 Albatros scouts, one of which according to a report filed by Lt Col Lewis who was commanding the 3 Army's anti aircraft group, was painted all red. It is said that Little completely outclassed this gaggle of Albatri for the next 15 minutes or so, the whole time drawing them closer to the AA, and when in range they opened up on the Albatri, who then turned for home. Was MvR flying the red albatros, we will never know for sure, but he was credited with a victory earlier at 17.45 in the area. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameldriver Posted 29 October , 2003 Share Posted 29 October , 2003 This is one that has always fascinated me; I read somewhere that Hawker actually ran out of ammunition, and the Baron realising this, knew it would end in an easy kill. Have you heard this? It seems to support the principal of him being a cold-hearted killer; perhaps more propaganda, than truth? I don't believe that Lanoe ran out of ammunition. The fight took place on the German side of the lines, and there was a westerly wind. Lanoe had to break off and head for home before he ran out of gas (petrol). That gave MvR the opportunity to get a decent shot at him. MvR got a gun jam and was able to clear it only seconds before Lanoe would have been in the clear. Although I've read that in order to be considered a dogfight, more than 50 planes had to be involved, I think that all of the examples are more than acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 29 October , 2003 Share Posted 29 October , 2003 Although I've read that in order to be considered a dogfight, more than 50 planes had to be involved, I think that all of the examples are more than acceptable. Could you reference this please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 29 October , 2003 Share Posted 29 October , 2003 Although I've read that in order to be considered a dogfight, more than 50 planes had to be involved, I think that all of the examples are more than acceptable. Could you reference this please? Ian, The quote originates from Arch Whitehouse . Enough said. Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameldriver Posted 29 October , 2003 Share Posted 29 October , 2003 , The quote originates from Arch Whitehouse . Enough said. Darryl Darryl Say what you want about the man, he did actually fly and fight in WWI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 29 October , 2003 Share Posted 29 October , 2003 Arch was Northampton man before he emigrated and his autobiog. "The Fledgling" is well worth reading. He returned to Northampton to sign up and joined the Northants Yeomanry before moving on to the RFC. One of my prize finds is a signed postcard photo of him in Northants Yeomanry uniform purchased locally at bargain price. His nephew still lives locally and is a second hand book dealer who keeps me well supplied with bargain great war material when not being a stalwart musician of several blues bands. He recently celebrated his birthday with an all day bash at a local pub which was opened (well, he pulled the first pint) by Arch. Arch last visited Northampton in the early sixties. His avaition volumes are not the most accurate but are eminently readable, if occasionally slightly fanciful. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 30 October , 2003 Share Posted 30 October , 2003 Say what you want about the man, he did actually fly and fight in WWI. Cameldriver, Actually I say very little about Arch. He was there, I was not. He served as an observer and late in the war trained as a pilot. He did not see active service in that capacity. My big problem is with anyone who pollutes history with cheap “dime store” (as the Americans call it) fiction passed off as fact from “one who was there”. That is what demeans his real service…not any comment I could make 80+ years later. Arch did his job in a brave, if unexceptional fashion…as did most men in that terrible war. People love to jump to his defence based on his service. However his service, as far as it does not concern blatant falsification in his published books, is not at issue. Quentin Reynolds told a good tale in the way that Journalists sometimes tell a good tale without too much regard for the facts. With Longstreet the tripe started with the title and got steadily worse from there. I find it a pity that someone who served must be judged in the same category as these writers. Having said that, the “Should History be Suborned” article was a disgraceful personal attack and it is unsurprising that it elicited such a strong defence by members. However it was the method not the factual content that was challenged. respects Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameldriver Posted 30 October , 2003 Share Posted 30 October , 2003 My big problem is with anyone who pollutes history with cheap “dime store” (as the Americans call it) fiction passed off as fact from “one who was there”. We don't disagree. However, the question remains "where does fact end and fiction begin?". Reviewing combat reports made by different pilots in the same fight will reveal glaring differences between what each man believed happened. Even where they might all agree, other facts can show them to be wrong, e.g. an enemy claimed destroyed who was really alive and well. I am always fascinated in reading contemporary newspaper accounts of various actions to see how far they are from the "facts" as we now know them to be. While Whitehouse's books contain inaccuracies and distortions, so do many history texts. Most of Arch's books were written as novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 However, the question remains "where does fact end and fiction begin?". Reviewing combat reports made Most of Arch's books were written as novels. Cameldriver, Agreed. But I think a distinction has to be drawn between optimistic CiTARs and claims such as "I invented the dogfight" and "I shot down 15 enemy aircraft and was an Ace". All I say about Arch to newcommers (and Reynolds and Longstreet) is please, a grain of salt. cheers Darryl (BTW, No Pararchute contains glaring errors from a man I do greatly admire...Lee.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Breguet Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Although some know me others do not. So I'll say upfront That I'll always plug for Major RS Dallas DSO DFC (and Bar) C de G Mid etc. Hows this for a classic dogfight ? Fourteen DFW C V two-seaters and flanking Albatros roared off towards Amiens, only to be detected at 16,000 ft by Flight Commander Roderic Dallas and Flight Sub-Lieut. T. G. Culling, who had been chasing single recce machines without satisfaction. The assembly seemed nothing short of a miracle. In many patrols they had fired only uplifted tails of fleeing Huns. But this formation, bristling with guns drove up contemptuously. Dallas and Culling were airwise. Their tanks were nearly full and they had confidence in the Tripe's superior climbing ability, which they employed expertly. They came in from either side in short dives, zoomed effortlessly, and dived again. The sky filled with necklaces of tracer, but they persisted. A DFW lost height, slowly turned eastwards; but the pack closed ranks and continued. The Tripe's harried another black crossed machine which spun, caught itself and slithered into a wild pirouette until lost to view. The Hun's changed course with the Vickers rattling at them. Clumsily they resumed their original direction, and the Navy pilots hammered them again. A third DFW cocked up its nose and then lazily rolled over with flames spreading along the fuselage. It was enough. In twos and threes the group dispersed, retreating ignominiously before the tireless Triplanes who, their ammunition exhausted finally steered for Chipilly. Forty-five minutes, an eternity in aerial combat, had passed since Dallas and Culling commenced one of the great tactical battles of the air war. Breguet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameldriver Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Breguet Sheer poetry. You make it sound like you were there. I admire your power of description. Cameldriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Breguet, Are we talking 22/4/18? Is that from "the" book? BTW, W.A.D research well advanced on the updated list. Still looking decidedly W.A.D. I'm afraid. Don't you just love those German records? regards Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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