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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Leeds Pal buried Belgium


Chris Noble

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Just like to thank Aurel, via the Forum, for some fantastic photos of Mitchell's grave i received today.

As always, Aurel has come up trumps in the true spirit of the Forum.

Many thanks.

Regards, Chris.

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Thanks, Chris.

But it was obvious that while being at Strand Cemetery I could do just as well what I'm sure you would appreciate (and also because I am a little puzzled by your Mitchell mystery).

Actually, I went there because I knew I could "twee vliegen in één klap slaan" (Dutch-Flemish saying meaning : to strike two flies in one blow, that is what you call : kill two birds with one stone) ;)

Aurel

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Hi all

and especially Aurel

Another mistery for you :

ISAAC, JOHN EDMUND VALENTINE

Initials: J E V

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Captain

Regiment/Service: Rifle Brigade

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 35

Date of Death: 09/05/1915

Awards: DSO

Additional information: Son of John Swinton Isaac, D.L., of Boughton Park, Worcester. Served in the South African Campaign.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: XXXI. F. 13.

Cemetery: NEW IRISH FARM CEMETERY

Nothing out of the ordinary you would say. But if you know that he went missing in France then all changes. In the bond of sacrifice it says " He was killed at Fromelles on the 9th of May while leading his men. he fell just after they took the German trench, but it was not possible to recover the body."

He had rejoined his regiment on the 7th of May.

The mistery remains

KOYLI

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No great Mystery,The Designation NEW Military Cemetery,indicates that this cemetery was formed from Burials that were gathered in from the Surrounding Battle Areas and small cemeterys after the War was over and these Burials were concentrated in one larger and more easily maintainable NEW Military Cemetery.In the course of my research into odd Burials,your Mans Body was in all probability not recovered until after the War was over,and maybe at the Time New Irish Farm was the only Cemetery available to accept new Burials,maybe there ws no other cemetery near Fromelles that was willing or able to accept Him,by this i mean that maybe they were still under construction at that Time.It is well worth contacting The IWM records Dept,who can often furnish a Map Ref for where the Body was recovered and the Date of the Exhumation.My Gt.Uncles Body was not found in High Wood until 1923,this information and a very good Map was provided by the IWM for a Donation...i agree that on the Surface these burials are very perplexing,as they do not seem to fit in with the Facts of the Action were the Man was killed,and His units movement.

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KOYLI,

Yes, I can confirm what PBI wrote. Not really a big surprise.

After the war New Irish Farm Cemetery was only 70 graves. After the Armistice 4560 were concentrated there. (Making 98% of the graves there now being new, added later !)

There is a list of 19 cemeteries that were concentrated there (all of them Flemish), but these 19 cemeteries do not total more than 406 graves. This means that 4560 - 406 = 4154 graves came from elsewhere, from unknown battlefields and small cemeteries. Some of them from the Fromelles area I guess ?

I suppose this is quite possible, for Fromelles is not that far ... Only 30 km.

Well, maybe 30 km is quite a distance, but indeed, maybe at the time the man (men) were brought in from Fromelles was late® in the 1920s, when there were not that many "open" cemeteries, qualifying for concentration, left.

Aurel

P.S. I am aware that what I have just written could also be used to explain the presence of Mitchell in Strand Cemetery (from Gavrell, 42 km).

However, in order to be able to judge both cases some (missing) elements should be taken into consideration. Like : how many men were concentrated, are there oters from the same battalion, and what year was that, etc...

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Just to add to 'The pot', English phrase Aurel, please forgive me.

As Aurel has posted in the thread, i usually work on the notion that, if this is an open cemetery, it is most probable that other casualties sustained by a battalion, possibly found at a later date, would be brought to this place for burial.

One man though?

I know there are examples on the Western Front that seem the exception to the rule.

But, i concur with Aurel, this does seem a bit 'odd'.

Thanks for your input and ideas Pals.

Regards, Chris.

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Hi all,

Just to give this thread a bit of a twist.

What about the KNOTT brothers :

Major James KNOTT DSO

10 bn West Yorkshire Regt.

Kia on the Somme 01/7/16

and

Captain Henry KNOTT

9 North. Fus.

DOW Ypres area 07/09/15

both buried side by side in Ypres Reservoir Cemetery V B 15 and V B 16

KOYLI

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Koyli,

That's a special case. On special request from the family James's remains were taken to Ypres Reservoir (don't know when), to be buried with his brother's, who had died near Ypres and had already been buried in Ypres Reservoir.

I think the father also paid for the tower of St. George's Church in Ypres.

Aurel

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  • 4 weeks later...

have you contacted the CWGC to find the location of his original grave? I believe they hold locations. For example one of my 9th SF men had the wrong death date on his headstone. It transpired that his grave had been found in 1919 and he was reburied some miles away. They had the map ref for his first grave and from that I could confirm that he wa sindeed a 9th Bn man who had died on 22/11/1916 and not 22/1/1916. As you are researching the complete unit, I am sure they would help out.

Stevem

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  • 2 weeks later...

post-14342-1159622785.jpgYou are looking at examples where there is a possibility that the body was buried in a distant cemetery during concentration. There are examples where beyond reasonable doubt the body is not where the headstone says it is.

Consider Redan Ridge Number 1 on the Somme. The cemetery was made in the spring of 1917 by V Corps. Three trenches were dug and the bodies were lain close together. The whole cemetery contains 154 burials of which 73 are unknown, 31 are dated 1st July 45 are from the November fighting, 4 from December and Rifleman J J Clifford Rifle Brigade.

Row A, shown in the photo has 57 burials, Cliffird is in grave 52. His date of death is given as 30th Aug 1918. This date is agreed by SDGW but this may not be conclusive as the data source for this and CWGC lists was common. The 1st Battalion of the Rifle Brigade was on Redan Ridge on 1st July so my first thought was that 6s had been mistaken for 8s and his date of death was 30th June 1916 which would make his burial in Redan Ridge 1 feasible. I moved away from this when his overseas death is certificated in the 3rd Quarter of 1918 even though it assigns him to KRRC not Rifle Brigade.

It does not seem possible that a gap remained in Row A and a body was bought from **** (can’t find my notes) and buried in the gap in a cemetery that had closed over a year before Clifford died. Beyond reasonable doubt the body of Clifford does not lie in Redan Ridge Cemetery. This is by no means the only example in non concentration cemeteries. Your case would be more difficult to pontificate on but there must remain the chance of error,

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Hi Steve.

That is one avenue i need to explore, thanks for that.

Peter, interesting thoughts.

Many thanks for your input on the subject.

Regards, Chris.

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