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Remembered Today:

South Wales Borderers


Les Woodbridge
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Hi,

I am trying to find out more about my Grandfathers service. I know when he signed up, when he was discharged and his number, but not much else. He was was not killed in the war but was gased and shell shocked and spent a year in a Birmingham hospital. I would like to know where he served, more about his time in hospital, and any other information I can. Although he came home from the war he never ever spoke about it. My Uncle thought he might have been at Vimy Ridge. Is it possible to find out which division he was in. As you may be able to see I am quite a novice at all this. Many Thanks to anyone who can point me in the right direction.

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welcome to the forum

post his name and number as it will make it easier for us to help

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His name was Thomas Lloyd Jones and his number was 41173. He signed up 22/11/1915 and was discharged 15/01/1919. He did have some medals and am trying to find out what they were.

Thankyou.

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Welcome to the forum, Leswood.

As advised above, BE SURE TO READ THIS: if you are about to ask questions about how to find a soldier's service record, make sure you have first visited "Researching a soldier" at The Long, Long Trail website. There's a link to it at top-left of this page.

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Hi Lesley,

Glad to see you here - as I e-mailed you, there should be someone who can help. As Chris says, there is a guide on "The Long Long Trail" site.

Your Grandfather's medal index card is here: -

NA Link

The data says SWB Depot.

These cost £3.50 to download, but may give you some more useful information. By the way, this is the charge the National Archives themselves make to anyone who downloads the images of these cards - there is no way round it unless you travel to Kew yourself to see if his service record remains.

Best wishes

Alan

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Hi Alan,

My sister did go into the archives but didn't get much information that we could understand. We got his rank and number. it said SWB Depot, which didn't mean much to us. It contained letters and numbers that we couldn't understand, and didn't show any medals. We thought it must be refering to literature elsewhere. My Uncle has copies of medals that were supposed to belong to Thomas Jones, and my sister has his discharge certificate.

Any more ideas.

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Hi Alan,

My sister did go into the archives but didn't get much information that we could understand. We got his rank and number. it said SWB Depot, which didn't mean much to us. It contained letters and numbers that we couldn't understand, and didn't show any medals. We thought it must be refering to literature elsewhere. My Uncle has copies of medals that were supposed to belong to Thomas Jones, and my sister has his discharge certificate.

Any more ideas.

I have been into the medal records again and now realise that he has the third type covering the Silver Badge Award. There is no record of any medals that I can see. I understand that he may have two index cards. How would I know and could I get hold of the second card?

Cause for discharge seems to read a.o29/19 para 2. Does this relate to anything that may help me?

If there are no medals recorded on this card does this mean he would have a second card?

I seem to be going round in circles. I think I need to know what division he was in, to find out where he served. Is that correct? Hope someone can guide me. Lesley.

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Lesley,

Do you have the Medal Index Card in a form you could post on the forum (i.e. scanned or a digital photo)? If you do then someone can probably help interpret what is written there.

If not, then there is a section on the Long Long Trail about how to understand MICs - try this link. I did find another MIC to a Thomas L Jones, but with a different service number - I'm not sure this would also have been to your grandfather as I believe there would only have been one MIC per man (only one set of medals were provided per man!)

You really need to know which Battalion of the South Wales Borderers he served in - from that you can fairly easily find out which Brigade and then Division he would have been with, and sowhere he would have been likely to have served.

Alan

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post-14255-1155505523.jpg

Hopefully I have attached the MIC for Thomas Lloyd Jones.

I have been on the Long Long Trail site and it did help a bit, that is where I got the information that he could have two cards, one for his silver war badge and one for his medals. There are no medals shown on his silver war card.

How could I find out what Battalion he was in? Do you think his medical records would help and is it possible to find them?

Thanks for all your time. Lesley.

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Is it actually 'SWB'? - It looks more like '2 Wales B' which I've not seen before but might mean 2nd Battalion, the Welsh Regt?

Not an MIC expert myself...but we have several!

Bernard

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Les have a look on his discharge certificate as this may well show both if he did indeed serve with the Welsh and the SWB.

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Les have a look on his discharge certificate as this may well show both if he did indeed serve with the Welsh and the SWB.

Thankyou for all responses.

His (what we think is his discharge certificate) says

"No. 41173 Private Jones Thomas Lloyd

South Wales Borderers

Having previosly served during the war in the Welsh Regiment."

I have followed the link provided and it does appear that he has another number with the Welsh Regiment 60907. I am now evev more confused. Why would this happen? Maybe I don't understand enough about the regiments. Will it now be evev more difficult to find out where he served, as I don't know when he changed regiments. Will I be able to get this information?

My sisteralso has a document from the Ministry of Pensions. It is a bit tatty but the disability is down as

n(not sure could be e or u) asthmia. Can anyone help with this?

I am very grateful for peoples time. Thankyou Les.

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The first card you have posted is his Silver War Badge card.

The 2nd, with the two regiments, is his campaign medals card.

He would have served with the Welsh Regiment with number 60907 (each Regiment allocated their own numbers), then with the South Wales Borderers with number 41173. Judging by his date of enlistment, his medal entitlement would be to a Victory Medal and British War Medal.

I would suggest downloading the card that Welshdoc has highlighted.

His cause of discharge is probably "Neurasthenia", the term being most often used for shell shock victims.

I have not researched either of these Regiments but I have seen the number ranges 60xxx and 41xxx used for men transferred from other Regiments, so there is the possibility of a third (i.e. his first) Regiment in which he served.

Men usually transferred Regiments due to injury, but there are many cases, especially from 1916 onwards, where men went overseas with one unit, reached the Base Depot in France (or elsewhere) then transferred Battalions and/or Regiments almost immediately.

You would need to find if his service records survived the Blitz. Unfortunately, with Thomas Jones, there will be a lot! Fortunately his middle name is not that common, so that may help. The National Archives at Kew have approximately 30% of the WW1 Service Records on microfilm at Kew. The remainder were lost in a bomb fire during the Blitz.

You will also want to check the Medal Rolls at the NA which should help to locate which battalions he was in.

Steve.

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Hello Les

If your grandfather received a disability pension as a result of war wounds/illness then his records could be in the pensions series. There is also a series for appeals if applicants were initially unsuccessful.

It might be worthwhile downloading the letter from the Ministry of Pensions here for further comment.

regards

Mel

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Hello

I followed the link and have now got his medal index card as you can see. I can't post his pension papers at the moment as my sister has them, but I will do it as soon as I can get them. As his MIC shows only two regiments and his discharge certificate only shows two, do you think that he just served in the two?

He seems to have been discharged with shell shock, we also think he was gassed and I wondererd if this would help to place him.

I think we will need a trip to Kew.

Many Thanks. Les.

post-14255-1155589937.jpg

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I think the trail has gone cold. However the plot seems to thicken. Although he is shown as only having two medals my Mum insists that he also has a Star she says she remembers it. As he wasn't called up until 22/11/1915 is it likely that he would have had chance to be shipped over to France in this time. I believe he would have had to serve abroad before 1916 to be awarded a Star. How long was the training?

As he lived in Wrexham I wondered why he would not have joined the Royal Welch Fusiliers, or is the Welsh Regiment part of the Fusiliers?

If I am able to go to Kew Could anyone help with what I need to be looking for? I think I need to see the medal role, soldiers records and his pension records. Should I be looking for anything else?

Thankyou

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Hi Les , the Welsh regiment is not a part of the RWF, its primarily South Wales based but recruitment was not always as simple as location. As for the star its very unlikely that he was awarded either the 14 or 15 star as training would be at least several months so he would not have been abroad. It is possible that he "awarded it to himself" or just aquired it as a souvenir there are examples of the stars on the main website see if your mother recognises them. He may also have been awarded a badge/medal for non war related activity such as the temperance society and this may explain its presence. Gareth

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Don't think he was 'called up' as conscription didn't start till 1916. Volunteered? Did he see service before 1915 and then get recalled? I'm not an expert on these issues so these are just my (uninformed) thoughts.

Bernard

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I think I probably have to go to Kew and have a look at the records. I have found his New Testiment and a diary from 1918, although it doesn't have many entries other than letters recieved and sent, it does list his movements. It also records the action that led to his hospitalisation, which was being bombed out of a support trench that they were digging. It names different camps and how they were moved through France. Some of it is a little difficult to read but I suppose if you know camp names it would help.

So it seems that he did serve through most of the war.

I do however have a Great Grandfather who was killed in the war and would like to do a little research on him, but thought I needed to do them one at a time.

I would just like to thank everyone for the help I recieved, we learnt lots of things that we didn't know before, I haven't given up but I think I have to go and look at the records.

Thanks again. Les.

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Don't think he was 'called up' as conscription didn't start till 1916. Volunteered? Did he see service before 1915 and then get recalled? I'm not an expert on these issues so these are just my (uninformed) thoughts.

Bernard

Bernard- Certainly its a possibility that a soldier was demobbed then re-enlisted, I have the service records of a 1914 RA veteran (14 star trio)who was demobbed in 1915 and re-joined the ASC and "won" the 1915 star trio as well! But there were several MICs to show this , so its not very likely to have occured in this case. It would be interesting though to see the dates covered in his diary.

gareth

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