Derek Robertson Posted 14 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Stuart & Mel, The transfer of battalions within the KOSB really does explain the "Hawick News" stating that John Turnbull fought at Loos, the Somme and then finally falling in Palestine. A Territorial of 1914 in either the 1/4th or 1/5th KOSB would have seen service in "only" Gallipoli and Palestine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Thanks Stuart for the explanation. It is much appreciated. My last thoughts on this. Is there a possibility that the Oliver casualty was born John Oliphant or perhaps even Turnbull and his mother remarried to Mr William Oliver with John adopting the surname? Regards Mel Do you need Auriel and his magpie on this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Stuart & Mel, The transfer of battalions within the KOSB really does explain the "Hawick News" stating that John Turnbull fought at Loos, the Somme and then finally falling in Palestine. A Territorial of 1914 in either the 1/4th or 1/5th KOSB would have seen service in "only" Gallipoli and Palestine. Aha one part of the mystery solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 14 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Do you need Auriel and his magpie on this thread? No, a magician and a time-machine would suffice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 21 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 21 August , 2006 Just as one door was beginning to open, another slamed shut in my face. The good news Ady (mmm45) has tracked down the name of J.W Oliver on a memorial near Redcar. I've still to dig deeper into this BUT I'm hoping that this ties in the KOSB soldier from Redcar who died 19/4/17 with details held by CWGC and the SDGW. The BAD news I've found another mention of a John Turnbull Oliver in a Hawick newspaper - his address and employment details don't fit with a later mention of J.T Oliver which I quoted above. The plot thickens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 25 August , 2006 Share Posted 25 August , 2006 HI Derek, Sorry can't add anythoing, but have you managed to find anything else yet? I have a man on my memorial similar to this, and it is so infuriating!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 25 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2006 HI Derek, Sorry can't add anythoing, but have you managed to find anything else yet? I have a man on my memorial similar to this, and it is so infuriating!! Infuriating is too delicate a word for how I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 30 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2006 Ive found a church war memorial in Hawick with John Turnbull Oliver's name on it. Add to this fact is that the name appears on the main Hawick War Memorial and his name (or the names of 2 JTO's) appear in Hawick newspapers of the time recording hid death strongly suggest that he did die in the war. However - there are NO corresponding confirmations of this either with the CWGC or SDGW or SNWM. I have his birth certificate but cannot find a corresponding death certifiicate. The saga continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 30 August , 2006 Share Posted 30 August , 2006 Lookig at the SDGW entry, giving place of birth as Redcar, I checked the 1901 census. There is an entry for John William Oliver, aged 12, living at 25, Lumley Street, Whitwood. He is shown to have been born in Redcar and is the son of James William Oliver, a 48 year old greengrocer, and Mary Oliver, aged 44. His parents originate from Northants and Yorkhsire respectively. I would hazard a guess at this being a good candidate for the SDGW entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 30 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2006 Stephen, I really appreciate your help in this. I'm still awaiting some sort of verification from the Redcar area on John WILLIAM Oliver but I strongly suspect the chap you found is the soldier killed with the 1/4th Bn.KOSB on 19/4/17. This means that my hypothesis that John T and John W were "one and the same" isn't correct. John WILLIAM Oliver looks 99% to have originated in the Redcar area, served with the KOSB and died at Gaza. However, my John TURNBULL Oliver is still out there somewhere. He is listed on 2 Hawick war memorials, he is mentioned twice in Hawick newspapers of the time as having died in the Great War with the KOSB but I cannot find him, despite having a copy of his birth certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 30 August , 2006 Share Posted 30 August , 2006 Hello Derek I am going to add to your pain Below is the MIC for John W Oliver. It ties in with the original Hawick newspaper report of Loos and Somme but not the report of wounding insofar as the record states KIA. It certainly does not tie in with the later report of John being a pre-war Territorial and having fought in the Dardanelles - the original service number does not fit and I can't think of a single unit that would have fought both in Loos and Gallipoli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 30 August , 2006 Share Posted 30 August , 2006 I am still bemused how two separate soldiers could possibly have the same first and surnames, be of the same age, die on the same day and in the same theatre of war and serve in the same regiment. I can accept some coincidences but isn't this stretching it a little too far? More to the point, why on earth would a Yorkshireman's service Will end up in the Scottish archives? I am convinced that they are one and the same man and I think that the Will may hold the key. I think that there was some family history here I remain intrigued by your quest. regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm45 Posted 31 August , 2006 Share Posted 31 August , 2006 More to the point, why on earth would a Yorkshireman's service Will end up in the Scottish archives? Would the fact that although JW Oliver was a serviceman from Yorkshire he was serving in a Scottish Regiment(KOSB) and all records with that Regiment therefore would be deposited at the Scottish Archives explain why his will is there? Ady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 31 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2006 Mel & Ady, I'm glad that you're both still following the thread here as it lost me a while back The Will seems to be the only tangible link to prove the story one way or the other but the fact that I have to go to Edinburgh twice in a week to order then view it means that I may not be able to resolve my conundrum for a while yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 31 August , 2006 Share Posted 31 August , 2006 Ady I accept your good point about the records of a Scottish Regiment being lodged in Scotland but if the Will of John W was that of a Yorkshire man then if it was admitted to probate, it would surely have been in an English County or District Probate Registry? If there was no need to admit to probate then would not the Will have been returned to the Next of Kin in any event? On a separate point, have you noticed that the second Regimental number (TF) on the MIC is marked with a cross? That would seem to suggest that the 1914-15 Star Trio was inscribed with that number rather than the original service Battalion number that John entered France with. Could that suggest that the second number is John's pre-war TF number? Just questions regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 31 August , 2006 Share Posted 31 August , 2006 Would the fact that although JW Oliver was a serviceman from Yorkshire he was serving in a Scottish Regiment(KOSB) and all records with that Regiment therefore would be deposited at the Scottish Archives explain why his will is there? Hi Ady - No, his will being held at the NAS means that JW Oliver was domiciled in Scotland. Hi Mel - I noticed that this no. was marked on the medals. It is a bit strange because it definitely would not be a pre-war KOSB (TF) number. These numbers were being issued to the 5th KOSB in the latter half of 1916. This probably fits with him either being wouded/sick at the Somme, returning to the Depot in the Uk and then being transferred to another battalion (7/8th to 5th) late in 1916. Why his 1915 Star isn't marked 16048 I don't know! Derek - I am also still following this thread. To state the obvious, this is a very confusing story. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to sort this out in my head and I started typing out my ideas but I didn't think they really shed any light on the problem, so I ditched them. I can only repeat what I said previously that JW Oliver's service nos./units fit with Loos/Somme/Palestine. Where JT fits in I haven't a clue.... as far as I can make out it is either a situation of name confusion or that JT served under an assumed name. We'll just have to wait for the will. Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 31 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2006 Stuart, Where there's a Will there's a way! Congrats on your website by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 21 January , 2007 Share Posted 21 January , 2007 Derek Did you ever manage to find a solutiom to this mystery? Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 10 March , 2008 Share Posted 10 March , 2008 Hi Derek, I have just re-read this entire thread and I am still confused. However, I can state definitively that the John Oliver killed at 2nd Gaza on 19th April 1917 was the Wilton Crescent, Hawick man. I have a copy of his will which states: In the event of my death I give the whole of my property and effects to my Mother ------------ Mrs. Oliver 10 Wilton Crescent Hawick Scotland ------------ John Oliver 9298 Pte. 1/5 K.O.S.B. 14th February 1917 (New No. 201659) You may already have this information by now, but thought I would pass it on just in case. Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 16 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2008 Stuart, Thanks for that info. Do you have a scan of the actual will? I ask as I'm a bit baffled why the battalion is listed as 1/5th KOSB when his number is 1/4th. Surely he would have known which battalion he served in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 16 March , 2008 Share Posted 16 March , 2008 Just to add another line, In the London Gazette there ia a J Turnbull, private KOSB, who died and left £2.11.06, but he's listed in the 1915 - 16 http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...gence%20section Hope this is a help and not a hinder Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mts Posted 16 March , 2008 Share Posted 16 March , 2008 1901 census Name: John T Oliver Age: 4 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897 Relationship: Son Father's Name: William Mother's Name: Elizabeth Gender: Male Where born: Hawick, Roxburgh Registration Number: 789/1 Registration district: Hawick Civil Parish: Hawick Town: Hawick County: Roxburghshire Address: 3 Allais Bank ED: 12 Page: 4 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 22 Line: 8 Roll: CSSCT1901_422 Household Members: Name Age Francis Dick 13 Helen Dick 16 Adaline Oliver 9 Elizabeth Oliver 42 Janette G Oliver 13 John T Oliver 4 Margaret Oliver 12 William Oliver 40 William Oliver 8 10 years earlier different family but Dad's name is the same so there could be 2 John T Olivers 1891 Name: John T Oliver Age: 3 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888 Relationship: Son Father's Name: William Mother's Name: Jane Gender: Male Where born: Cavers, Roxburghshire Registration Number: 794 Registration district: Kirkton Civil Parish: Kirkton County: Roxburghshire Address: Kirkton Cottage ED: 1 Page: 1 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 2 Line: 12 Roll: CSSCT1891_386 Household Members: Name Age Helen Oliver 7 Jane Oliver 35 Jane Oliver 8 Months Janet Oliver 5 John T Oliver 3 William Oliver 39 William Oliver 9 mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mts Posted 16 March , 2008 Share Posted 16 March , 2008 John William Oliver 1901 Name: John William Oliver Age: 12 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889 Relation: Son Father's Name: James William Mother's Name: Mary Gender: Male Where born: Coatham Redear, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Whitwood Ecclesiastical parish: Whitwood All Saints Town: Whitwood County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View Image Registration district: Pontefract Sub-registration district: Castleford ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 135 Household Members: Name Age Beatrice May Oliver 4 James William Oliver 48 John William Oliver 12 Mary Oliver 44 Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 16 March , 2008 Share Posted 16 March , 2008 Do you have a scan of the actual will? I ask as I'm a bit baffled why the battalion is listed as 1/5th KOSB when his number is 1/4th. Surely he would have known which battalion he served in. Yes, I will email you the scan. The will is consistent with his BWM/Vic medal roll entry (8th, 7/8th, 1/5th). Also it should be noted that he isn't listed in the Roll of Honour in the 4th KOSB history. If you look at the 2nd Gaza casualties, there are a large number of deaths of 1/5th numbered men serving with the 1/4th and vice versa. Of course, bear in mind that the medal roll entry is under 'John Willie Oliver'! Unfortunately, he doesn't give an initial on his will signature. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 17 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2008 Thanks Grant, Mel and Stuart. I think that it's time to lock myself away in a dark room with all this info and see if there is a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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