RAMC

[Gordon Caldecott]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me whether the RAMC were armed, during the Great War?

If not at what point did they start to carry weapons?

[Gordon Caldecott]

Found this which might be of inerest...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A1280666

[nfh249]

I don't know when the RAMC started carrying arms, but I did as a (TA) medic in the 90's. The Geneva Conventions allow for medics to be armed in self defence and in defence of their patients.

Regards,

Neil.

[Tony Lund]

I read that the Emilienne Moreau, the eighteen year old French girl who was awarded the Military Medal at Loos, grabbed the Black Watch doctor’s pistol to kill two German soldiers with.

Although this website gives a slightly different account.

Lady of Loos.

Tony.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I haven't seen any WW1 pictures of armed RAMC O/R's. I would imagine they would have had some weapon training if only to be able to make safe a weapon.

During my day 80-90 the empahsis was placed on defensive weapons, ours were the SMG and pistol. We received training in the SLR and GPMG and later on the SA80 but never were issued them operationally (although every unit was different so i can't say nobody ever was) . Guard duties we carried SMG's.

In Ireland we were issued with Browning 9mm pistols.

Mick

[Gordon Caldecott]

Cheers Guys, thats a great help thank you.

[Medic7922]

In regards to RAMC personnel being armed, I am not aware that the ordinary RAMC soldier Carried weapons during WW1, but have seen reports that some RMOs (Regimental Medical Officers) did carry a side arm on occations, also Hospital Ships had a small amount of weapons on board for Protection which was mostly used by the Ships crew.

I have seen an image from the WW2 of Airbourne Medical NCOs carring Pistols at the Battle of Arnham

and as a RAMC Medic in the 70/80 we carried either a SMG or 9mm Pistol on some exercises.

[Gordon Caldecott]

In regards to RAMC personnel being armed, I am not aware that the ordinary RAMC soldier Carried weapons during WW1, but have seen reports that some RMOs (Regimental Medical Officers) did carry a side arm on occations, also Hospital Ships had a small amount of weapons on board for Protection which was mostly used by the Ships crew.

I have seen an image from the WW2 of Airbourne Medical NCOs carring Pistols at the Battle of Arnham

and as a RAMC Medic in the 70/80 we carried either a SMG or 9mm Pistol on some exercises.

Many thanks for this Sgt Maj Medic. Could I ask could you post the picture your refer to re NCO at Arnhem? I`d very much like to see it.

[Essexboy68]

Folks

Could be wrong, but I seem to recall from my days in the RAMC(V), that weapon training was only brought in after WW2 (1947 seems to stick in my head). However, I am aware that some medical personnel were armed during WW2, but do not know how that affected their standing under the (then) terms of the Geneva Convention. I have read that whilst not armed, & counted as non-combatants, you could not enlist in the RAMC if you were registered as a Conscientious Objector.

Cheers

Mark

[Gordon Caldecott]

Mark that is interesting, I`m sure I read somewhere that the RAMC had Conscientious Objectors in it, but that might have been WW1. I also think the ethos of the RAMC is changing too. On a recent tour in Iraq they had 432`s with GPMG`s on them. Granted tey never had course to fire them, but had them none the less.

Gordon.

[walrus]

I seem to recall one of my uncles mentioning that, as an RAMC driver, he had a weapon of some sort (I think he said, an smg) in the cab of the ambulance, nominally for 'defence of the patients' - unfortunately he died nearly thirty years ago, so I can't confirm my memory

[mark holden]

I recall that Capt JC Dunn DSO MC RAMC Author 'The War The Infantry Knew', was reported as manning a Machine Gun during a particularly heavy German attack- something he denied, but was Regimental folklore in the 23rd Of Foot.

I seem to recall one of my uncles mentioning that, as an RAMC driver, he had a weapon of some sort (I think he said, an smg) in the cab of the ambulance, nominally for 'defence of the patients' - unfortunately he died nearly thirty years ago, so I can't confirm my memory

[auchonvillerssomme]

I would suggest that the RAMC weren't armed during WW1 except maybe as mentioned a MO carrying a sidearm.

But that has caused me to think of whether an infantry Regimental Stretcher Bearer wearing a red cross would be armed?

The 1906 Geneva Convention allowed for the carrying of arms by medical personnel.

Art. 8. A sanitary formation or establishment shall not be deprived of the protection accorded by Article 6 by

the fact:

1. That the personnel of a formation or establishment is armed and uses its arms in self defense or in defense of its sick and wounded.

Mick

[Muerrisch]

an infantry stretcher bearer would not wear a red cross: he would wear SB, red on white. He was entitled to bear arms.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thanks for that Grumpy.

Can i ask then? do you know when did regimental medics start wearing Red Crosses?. And something has stuck in my mind about the red cross itself. When I was serving I was told that as RAMC we wore a red cross that was as wide as the arm band but infantry medics wore an armband where the red cross was smaller. Now I've seen both types, and still have mine. Any thoughts.

Mick

[Muerrisch]

I was only speaking Great War. I think the part-trained combat medic embedded in the infantry unit is a more recent concept.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Apologies I drifted a bit off topic there. I was thinking post war.

Mick

[deadin]

I have a pistol bearing the name of a Captain (Doctor) in the RAMC, WW1. In my research I received the following from the the Keeper, Exhibits & Firearms at the War Museum:

It was entirely usual for RAMC officers to carry a pistol. and, as with other army officers, they were required to purchase their own. By the middle of the war this was in practice possible where .455 revolvers were concerned only by purchasing a revolver 'out of store' (i.e. from the War Office) or second hand, privately. It was of course still possible to purchase pistols not in the Service calibre from civilian sources, and many officers chose to carry something other than (or as well as) a .455 (.32 acp Colts were very popular). Revolvers with the opposed broad arrow markings were 'sold out of store'. These became the officer's property absolutely. At the end of the War, there was a second shortage of revolvers (the American factories were making for the American government, and relations between the British government and Webley were not good). The government therefore launched an appeal to retired officers to sell back their .455s. Very occasionally, therefore, such a revolver is found with cancelled 'sold out of store' markings.

Under English proof law, there is no requirement that a firearm be subjected to civilian proof unless it is to be sold. An officer could therefore own an unproved revolver quite legally. I suspect that almost no-one outside the gun trade was aware of the proof requirement, and doubt that this occurred very often where private sales are concerned. If the revolver came into the hands of a dealer for resale, he would routinely submit it for proof.

I hope that this information is of help in your research.

Dean

[Muerrisch]

Of course, RAMC and predecessors issued sidearms to ORs with an eye to 'savage warfare': your average fuzzywuzzy was not too particular about noncombatant status when he had your family jewels in his sights!

[Gordon Caldecott]

I must say this is a very interesting thread. Thanks for all your replies. I wonder has Britain ever fought an ememy that was bound by the Law of Arms, except the Germans?

[auchonvillerssomme]

from my notes I beleive the following were signatories in 1906 which would have covered WW1

Argentine Republic

Austria-Hungary

Belgium

Brazil

Bulgaria

Chile

China

Congo

Denmark

France

Germany

Great britain

Greece

Guatemala

Honduras

Italy

Japan

Luxemburg

Mexico

Montenegro

Nicaragua

Netherlands

Norway

Persia

Peru

Portugal

Romania

Russia

Serbia

Siam

Spain

Sweden

Switzerland

United States of America

Uruguay

Mick