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Remembered Today:

"C. of Hrs" on medal roll


Michael Pegum

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According to his medal roll card, a man I am researching was transferred from the South Irish Horse to the "C. of Hrs". I presume this means the Corps of Hussars. The National Roll of the Great War gives his "Regiment, Corps etc." as Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line, and "Battalion/etc." as South Irish Horse.

Is there any way of finding which unit he was transferred to? He was killed in action near Ypres on 25/10/1917. Was there any cavalry unit there at the time? The CWGC says he was in the Royal Irish Regiment, but this is probably an error. The S.I.H. had been incorporated into the R.I.R. by then, but were nowhere near Ypres.

If I can identify the unit, I can look up the war diary. As he was a private (not trooper, apparently), he won't be named in the diary but at least I could get an account of the action.

Michael

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Hello

some war diarys mention the other ranks

and C hussars is corps of hussars

Ian

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The CWGC says he was in the Royal Irish Regiment, but this is probably an error. The S.I.H. had been incorporated into the R.I.R. by then, but were nowhere near Ypres.

What makes you think this is an error? you yourself pointed out that the SIH had been absorbed into the RIR by then. The RIR had 10 battalions during the Great War and is entitled to the battle honours Ypres 1915, 1916 and 1917 so it is more than likely that the CWCG is right. If you post his name and number perhaps one of the pals might be able to help you. Any RIR / Ypres experts out there?

Regards,

Neil.

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has soldiers died been checked ?

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Michael,

I have a Discharge Certificate to 25372 Pte Patrick Hickey, 7th(South Irish Horse)Bn, Royal Irish Regt, who was formerly 1978 Trooper Patrick Hickey, South Irish Horse, who transferred to the R.I.Regt on the 1st September 1917. So your man was probably a transfer too.

Graham.

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It looks like this is going to become a confused Topic. The thing is that Michael has started a Topic on this problematic man in other sections too

"Pte Martin Hogan" : in I'm going to the National Archives

"Burial in Canada Farm Cemetery" : in Cemeteries and Memorials.

I think I 'd better add a link, if Michael doesn't mind.

Or will you do that, Michael ?

Sorry if I am imposing.

Aurel

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It looks like this is going to become a confused Topic. The thing is that Michael has started a Topic on this problematic man in other sections too

Aurel

This is a query about identifying a unit under the general name of the Corps of Hussars. I thought that someone with expert knowledge of the organisation of the Army, or of cavalry units, might help.

One of the other threads was asking someone to check Martin Hogan's service record in the National Archives. I would like that request to remain clear.

The third thread was a query as to whether anyone could explain why he was buried, after being killed in action, a long way from where his alleged unit was at the time.

By all means add links, but they are three separate queries.

With regard to the transfer to 7th Btn. R.I.R., the third thread mentioned above explains that he was buried north-east of Ypres, having been killed in action, while that unit was 105km away, and not involved in action on that day anyway. (The S.I.H. was not joined to the R.I.R. until September, 1917.)

Also, his medal record card, mentioned in my first message, says that he was transferred to the Corps of Hussars, not the R.I.R. He may therefore have been transferred before the absorption into the R.I.R.

Michael

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Also, his medal record card, mentioned in my first message, says that he was transferred to the Corps of Hussars, not the R.I.R. He may therefore have been transferred before the absorption into the R.I.R.

Michael

Michael,

This of course would explain his presence near Ypres on 25/10/17.

Question of course : was that unit near Ypres then ?

Sorry I don't know how to find the answer. (I certainly can't find anything in McCarthy's Passchendaele.

Could there be something in : G. Arthur, The Story of the Household Cavalry, London, 1926 ? (That source is in the Ypres Documentation Centre). But I'm afraid all things related to Cavalry are a puzzle to me. (Not that I know about ALL the rest ! ;)

Aurel

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I mentioned this on one of other threads, but the Corps of Hussars was the administrative body responsible for the Hussar regiments, the South Irish Horse being one.

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I mentioned this on one of other threads, but the Corps of Hussars was the administrative body responsible for the Hussar regiments, the South Irish Horse being one.

Here is the Medal Roll card. I thought it showed a change of unit. Is that not the case?

Michael

post-3328-1154883506.jpg

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I don't think it does in this case. If he was transfered to a different regiment/corps then he would probably have had a number change. I'm not sure exactly how these Corps functioned, but he was either a member of the corps as well as the SIH or perhaps he was 'transfered' to their rolls during the period when the SIH regiments were merging i.e. when the SIH ceased to exist officially and he was waiting to be posted to the new RIR??

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  • 6 years later...

Hi Michael,

Just to answer your 'very old' question. Pte Martin Hogan did not transfer from the SIH to the C of Hussars, but rather the SIH, designated as Hussars came under the Corps of Hussars for admin purposes after June/July 1917. He like many others in the SIH did not retrain as infantry but stayed as cavalry. It was as a cavalry man that he was killed in action, possibly as part of some Corps HQ duty (traffic control or the like) being performed in the Ypres area. The omission of a R Ir Regt number on his MIC confirms he remained as a cavalryman throughout his service. I've also confirmed this by dint of having a complete list of regimental numbers for the 7th Btn R Ir Regt and there is no room for his surname in the alphabetical list, also the C of Hussars entry on his MIC without a 73,000 number confirms his removal from theatre before these numbers were issued in late 1917. Hope this helps.

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Hello all

The most likely explanation is that he was not, in fact, killed in action.

He is buried in Canada Farm Cemetery of which the CWGC says:

Historical Information

Canada Farm Cemetery took its name from a farmhouse used as a dressing station during the 1917 Allied offensive on this front. Most of the burials are of men who died at the dressing station between June and October 1917.

It seems most likely that he died of wounds sustained during June to August 1917, before SIH became 7/R Ir Regt. During the relevant period SIH provided the personnel of XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment, in Fifth Army, which was of course in the Salient.

Ron

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Thanks, that's helpful. He is, in fact, the only member of the S.I.H. in Canada Farm Cemetery, which holds 909 graves. The first burial was on 03/07/17, and 785 of them occurred between then and the end of the year.

There are men from 72 regiments or corps, so Canada Farm must have been taking casualties from a wide area. Many of them were gunners: the RFA, RGA and RHA made up 432 of them - over 48%.

Michael

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  • 8 years later...
On 11/04/2013 at 13:05, Ron Clifton said:

Hello all

The most likely explanation is that he was not, in fact, killed in action.

He is buried in Canada Farm Cemetery of which the CWGC says:

Historical Information

Canada Farm Cemetery took its name from a farmhouse used as a dressing station during the 1917 Allied offensive on this front. Most of the burials are of men who died at the dressing station between June and October 1917.

It seems most likely that he died of wounds sustained during June to August 1917, before SIH became 7/R Ir Regt. During the relevant period SIH provided the personnel of XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment, in Fifth Army, which was of course in the Salient.

Ron

Hi Ron,

I have been trying to find the records of the SIH within the XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment (I believe A and B squadron transferred in January 1917) to no avail. The SIH war diaries don't seem to cover their time in XVIII Corps, though I do note this entry (http://www.southirishhorse.com/documents/sih_war_diaries_2.htm). Nor can I find a war diary for XVIII Corps itself or any record of  A or B squadron SIH within XVIII Corps Divisions. I have also seen elsewhere that King Edward's Horse Regiment made up XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment. Im essentially trying to figure out whether A squadron SIH would have seen action at Passchendaele as you may suggest above.

Any ideas? 

Andrew

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