Tom A McCluskey Posted 5 August , 2006 Share Posted 5 August , 2006 Hi all, Does anyone recognize the unit involved in this photograph? I believe it is an Australian unit at the Somme in 1918. Also, does anyone have the IWM, or Australian, photo reference for this picture, please? What is interesting is, not only is it a great photo, but they have their entrenching tools in front of the 'crown jewels' In advance, many thanks! Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest redkell Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Tom Picture is often used in Australian publications. Date is 8/8/18 (anniversary soon) 29 Bn AIF at Warfusee-Abancourt. Lt Rupe Downes adressing platoon AWM reference E02790 Dontcha luv the bloke wif the Lewis Ned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 There is a second Lewis gunner further down the line as well. Good example of how the intrinsic firepower had increased in infantry units. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 6 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Ned, Great! Thanks for the information It's a fantastic photo, and the boys look like they mean business. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Tom All the soldiers in the photograph were identified, and their subsequent fate mentioned, in an issue of Wartime, the AWM's journal, a few years ago. If you're interested, I'll look it up for you. Cheers Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceebee Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Tom Gareth, I started typing this up and you got in before me. Rather than waste what I had commenced I thought I'd finish the job and post it along with another image. B Company, 29th Infantry Battalion on the morning of 8 August 1918 near the villages of Warfusee and Lamotte. Left to right( see image below): 1. 5058 Sgt William Patrick O'Brien - KIA 9 August 1918 2. 4271 Pte James Cryer - discharged 28 Sept 1919 3. 4103 Pte Charles Alfred Olive - KIA 30 Sept 1918 4. 677 Lance Cpl Louis Price MM - died 20 July 1993 aged 98 5. 5095 Pte Harry James Phillips - died 21 December 1977 6. 4733 Pte Horace Joseph Buckley - returned to Aust 6 Sept 1919 7. 509 Lance Cpl Alexander Bethuen Craven - died 19 May 1960 8. 5088 Pte Patrick O'Grady - returned to Aust June 1919 9. 5057 Pte Timothy Leyden - died 31 October 1941 10. 5116 Pte Edward Thomlinson - returned to Aust July 1919 11. 5014 Pte Herbert Davidson - discharged 12 Sept 1919 12. 6827 Pte Horace John Towers - died 11 November 1918 13. 4349 Lance Cpl Thomas John Barrett Pope - returned to Aust 5 Jan 1920 14. 2568 Pte John Leslie Gordon Arlow - KIA 30 Sept 1918 15. 3207 Temp Cpl John Bird - died 24 Oct 1945 16. 560 Pte Frederick George Hall (curiously standing between the line of soldiers and Lt Downes) - died 2 June 1971 17. Lt Rupert Frederick Arding Downes MC - died 1954 Taken from the article by W.H. Connell called Seventeen Men in Wartime No.3 Spring 1998, pp 47-48, Official Magazine of the Australian War Memorial. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Chris Thanks, I was just slogging through the Wartimes trying to find it, but hadn't reached 1998. Cheers Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 6 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Chris, Excellent, thanks very much for the details about the troops in the photograph. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 thanks Ceebee. Very interesting post. Where did you find the pic and identifying names? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceebee Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Robbie They are from an article by W.H. Connell called Seventeen Men, published in Wartime No.3 Spring 1998, pp 47-48, Official Magazine of the Australian War Memorial. If you would like a scanned copy please PM your email details and I'll send it through. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Mates, I believe Fred Hall was Lt Downes batman and also acted as runner hence his beiing out front. Also the size of the men is interesting as Pte Thomlinson (10) was 43 years old and only 5 1/4 feet in height. Cheers S,B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceebee Posted 6 August , 2006 Share Posted 6 August , 2006 Service records for all the men, except Pte Phillips (5), Pte Arlow (14) and Cpl Bird (15) have been digitised and can be viewed on the website of the Australian National Archives (here). Pte Thomlinson was initially rejected for military service due to his height. He was eventually accepted in August 1917, when standards had relaxed. On the topic of size, the service record for Pte Hall states he was 5 feet 2 1/2 inches tall. He looks taller to me, but that could be due to the perspective and sloping land. Pte Leyden (9) was 5 feet 4 1/4 inches. Lt Downes towers at 5 feet 11 inches. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 7 August , 2006 Share Posted 7 August , 2006 Robbie They are from an article by W.H. Connell called Seventeen Men, published in Wartime No.3 Spring 1998, pp 47-48, Official Magazine of the Australian War Memorial. If you would like a scanned copy please PM your email details and I'll send it through. Chris that would be terrific thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckman Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Happy 88th Anniversay, chaps. 17 men in a platoon...should be what 60? Read recently about how the Commonwealth divisions were able to keep the numbers up near full strength in 1918. Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jaq Howe Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Tom Picture is often used in Australian publications. Date is 8/8/18 (anniversary soon) 29 Bn AIF at Warfusee-Abancourt. Ned Yes Ned, they all look a band of brothers. 88 years today since 8/8/18 91 years today 7 VC's at Lone Pine 64 years today 39th Australian Militia Battlion fought Battle of Kokoda. Today 8/8/2006 39th Battalion resurected as Training Unit for all Australian Defence Forces Happy Anniversaries mates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Yes Ned, they all look a band of brothers. 91 years today 7 VC's at Lone Pine jaq do you have a list of these? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jaq Howe Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Robbie Burton Dunstan Hamilton Keysor Shout Symons Tubb Check out the VC entry under Encyclopedia on the AWM.gov.au website Only 2 other VC's were awarded to Australians on Gallipoli Jaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 thanks jac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Happy 88th Anniversay, chaps. 17 men in a platoon...should be what 60? Read recently about how the Commonwealth divisions were able to keep the numbers up near full strength in 1918. Right. Hi Duckman, Maybe other Commonwealth divisions but not the Australian divsions. 17 in the platoon would be the correct figure. By the second half of 1918 Australian battalions averaged about 200 -250 men per battalion or less in some cases. The famous mutinies of some Australian battalions in 1918 resulted when the authorities tried to disband or merge them with other severely depleted units. The troops wanted to stay together and fight in their own battalions no matter how depleted they were. Some battalions did disband, eg the 60th, and the troops were posted to make up the strength of other units. Australia never introduced conscription in the Great War (rejected at two referendums) and so the AIF depended on a dwindling supply of volunteers in the last year of the war. Still a great effort - over 418,000 volunteers from a total population of 4.8 million. Regards Crunchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Hi Duckman (again) Just noticed your In memory was 8th Light Horse WIA at the Nek 7/8/15 and DOW. My Great -Uncle was 10th Light Horse KIA at the Nek 7/8/15. 91 years ago yesterday. Stout hearted men. Regards Crunchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 I too have that copy of "wartime" and i would love to know exactly how he tracked those names down ? the only thing i can think of is the photographer took them down after he took the photo, which i doubt very much. perhaps Lt Downes,s pocket book survived and he got the names from that ? does anybody know ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceebee Posted 9 August , 2006 Share Posted 9 August , 2006 montbrehain There must have been a starting point and this may be something to ask Ian Affleck from the Australian War Memorial. I've tried to contact Ian about another photo, but have been unsuccessful to date. A followup phone call is in order at which time I'll quiz him about this photo. There is a possibility that one of the survivors noticed the photo, which was widely distributed, and identified the soldiers. This may have passed down to relatives who in turn informed the AWM. Such a situation occurred with another photo published in Wartime Magazine. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 9 August , 2006 Share Posted 9 August , 2006 It`s a lovely photo and quite poignant in that the sergeant smiling on the left was apparently killed next day. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aley Posted 24 April , 2007 Share Posted 24 April , 2007 I too have that copy of "wartime" and i would love to know exactly how he tracked those names down ? the only thing i can think of is the photographer took them down after he took the photo, which i doubt very much. perhaps Lt Downes,s pocket book survived and he got the names from that ? does anybody know ? Don't know if your still interested or if you have found out but, if memory serves me, i recall seeing an ad/article placed (probably by the AWM) a few years back asking anyone who maybe able to assist in identification to contact same. Was it in the Age newspaper? I believe a few relatives came forward and were able to identify or verify. Sorry bit vague - but i'm sure thats how it all came together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nobelius Posted 25 April , 2007 Share Posted 25 April , 2007 I did not see any request in the press, but the AWM did run a special segment within the last two years asking for identification of mainly WW2 and Korean pictures. Vern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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