You favourite Fighter Pilot............

[Guest Breguet]

PS: Hi Breguet, been intrigued by your work on Stan Dallas since I first read about it on the Aerodrome forum. When does the book come out? Publishing details? Anything? I for one will be in the queue to buy it.

Lots of people want to buy - but as of yet no one wants to publish. Its about 250 pages with 70 odd pics most never before published.

[duckman]

Lots of people want to buy - but as of yet no one wants to publish. Its about 250 pages with 70 odd pics most never before published.

Have you considered financing a limited run yourself through a third party publisher? Its expensive if it includes photos, but given that Grub Street books retail at $100 a pop here, you might be able to cover your costs. Obviously, the longer the print run, the healthier your margins. If as you say, there are lots of potential buyers, it might work.

[aleyoop]

...& shot down Albert Ball. ..

Will,

There is considerable doubt that Lothar did get Ball. I am surprised that nobody has queried the claim already. The central witness was a Kurt Hailer, Fleige-Abteilung 29.2 who received a ‘phone call late in the evening of 7 May.

Rrgn Rrng

“Hello, Kurt Hailer speaking”

“G’day, Kurt. This is the Adjutant of Jasta 11 here. Did any of your blokes spot any crashed pom aircraft today ?

“Why do you ask, Adj ?

“One of our blokes reckons he nailed one earlier today. “

“Funny you should ask. We do have one crashed machine. Examined it meself. You won’t believe it, Albert Ball, you know the English Richthofen.”

“Strike me ! [fainter voice] “Eh, Loth. You bagged Ball, mate !”

“Now hold your horses, I didn’t say….”

“Cricky, Loth, you got Ball. You’ll make a fortune out of this, they’ll be lining up for endorsements”

“Now, hang on a minute, I didn’t say…”

(Commmanding Officer)

“Here, Kurt, give me the phone, will you. “Hello, this is the Commanding Officer here, to whom am I speaking ?”

“This is Corporal Schnitzelgruber. All the others have shot through to the Officer’s Mess. Lothar's shouting the bar.”

Vin

[Frank_East]

I must say I liked McCudden for his overall contribution to leadership in the air.He was a mentor in the advising and coaching of inexperienced newcomers into operational front line activities. He realised that teamwork produces results and through his own involvement created "succession" at operational level.

Mannock had similar qualities as McCudden.Both amassed the majority of their victories through offensive sorties which required overflying enemy held territory.Mannock quickly saw that to beat the enemy in the air would require the use of formations and tactical judgement.He was an excellent motivater of subordinates, clearly outlaying his intended plan of atttack and most important always held a debriefing.His leadership qualities in the air and the self determination to pit himself amongst the enemy were such that his pilots were eager to fly and follow him.

Mannock never became an idol as Richthofen or Guynemer.His VC was awarded much later than his death.In life, it was said he wasn't much bothered about awards or publicity.He must have been an unassuming, yet ruthless aviator with personal qualities and skills unsurpassed in the air.

Mannock would have my vote with McCudden a much admired close second.

Regards

Frank East

[Jackie]

It's got to be Snoopy. Anyone who can bag the Red Baron has got to be the best.

[Will O'Brien]

...& shot down Albert Ball. ..

Will,

There is considerable doubt that Lothar did get Ball. I am surprised that nobody has queried the claim already. The central witness was a Kurt Hailer, Fleige-Abteilung 29.2 who received a ‘phone call late in the evening of 7 May.

Rrgn Rrng

“Hello, Kurt Hailer speaking”

“G’day, Kurt. This is the Adjutant of Jasta 11 here. Did any of your blokes spot any crashed pom aircraft today ?

“Why do you ask, Adj ?

“One of our blokes reckons he nailed one earlier today. “

“Funny you should ask. We do have one crashed machine. Examined it meself. You won’t believe it, Albert Ball, you know the English Richthofen.”

“Strike me ! [fainter voice] “Eh, Loth. You bagged Ball, mate !”

“Now hold your horses, I didn’t say….”

“Cricky, Loth, you got Ball. You’ll make a fortune out of this, they’ll be lining up for endorsements”

“Now, hang on a minute, I didn’t say…”

(Commmanding Officer)

“Here, Kurt, give me the phone, will you. “Hello, this is the Commanding Officer here, to whom am I speaking ?”

“This is Corporal Schnitzelgruber. All the others have shot through to the Officer’s Mess. Lothar's shouting the bar.”

Vin

Vin

OK I take your point, although I'm not too sure the phone conversation went exactly like that .................However as a Lothar fan I'm quite happy for him to claim the scalp of Ball until a better claimant steps forward............On the flip side & playing devils advocate, I'm sure that all of Albert Balls victories were bona fide

[aleyoop]

Will

Step forward Albert Ball. A competing theory is that he became disoriented in the cloud, his aircraft became inverted, stalled and crashed. From memory, that is Kiernan’s version.

And you are right about the ‘phone call. The Adjutant said “Hey” rather than “Eh”

Vin

[Will O'Brien]

Step forward Albert Ball. A competing theory is that he became disoriented in the cloud, his aircraft became inverted, stalled and crashed. From memory, that is Kiernan’s version.

Hmm............interesting & quite intriguing I will say that, but I'm not convinced

And you are right about the ‘phone call.  The Adjutant said “Hey” rather than “Eh”

[Jim_Grundy]

I think that it's extremely unlikely that Lothar shot down Albert, as he claimed a triplane and Albert was in an SE5.

Being a Nottingham man, my heart says Albert Ball was the best but my brain says McCudden or Mannock. I've always liked Mannock because he was such a good leader. Men like Albert Ball, the lone fighter, really belonged to another age!

Cheers,

Jim

[Paul K]

Mine would have to be Canadian flier Arthur "Roy" Brown, because he shot down Rittmeister Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen (the Red Baron).

Of course there are a few Australians that might disagree.

Paul

[duckman]

Of course there are a few Australians that might disagree.

Paul

Yeah, hilarious Paul

And a big thank you from the aviation non-experts for grinding that little fiction a little deeper into the carpet.

Just in case there are any who don't know, MvR was almost certainly hit by ground fire from Australian troops (probably from Cedric Popkin's Lewis gun, but there were plenty of other possibles). The only people who certainly weren't responsible were "WOP" May and "Roy" Brown.

Duckman

(Humourless Australian)

PS: Actually, I couldn't give a rats that it was Australians that dropped him. Just hate endlessly regurgitated myths. Rants also available at any mention of the Princes in the Tower, appeasement in the 1930's or almost anything about the Battle of Waterloo.

[Paul K]

The only people who certainly weren't responsible were "WOP" May and "Roy" Brown.

I guess you know that because you were there. By all the descriptions of the incident that I have either read or watched on television, its is a very real possibility that Mr Brown did shoot down the Red Baron as he was behind the him shooting very shortly before he crashed. I would however, be a fool not to agree that it is also a possibility that the Australians shot him down as well. Its too bad you are so humorless, I have talked to many Australians about this subject and you where the first to take it so personally.

Paul K

[duckman]

By all the descriptions of the incident that I have either read or watched on television, its is a very real possibility that Mr Brown did shoot down the Red Baron as he was behind the him shooting very shortly before he crashed. I would however, be a fool not to agree that it is also a possibility that the Australians shot him down as well. Its too bad you are so humorless, I have talked to many Australians about this subject and you where the first to take it so personally.

Paul K

Okay, Paul,

Lets put it this way. Point conceded - yes, there is a real (but extremely remote) possibility that Brown shot down MvR. But from Browns own description of the action, it seems highly unlikely. And it's not only Australians who think that. If you are interested in expanding the list of "all the descriptions you have read or watched" you may care to read (Briton) Norman Franks' and (Canadian) Alan Bennett's "The Red Baron's Last Flight: A Mystery Explained" or look here for some explanations of why Brown is one of the least likely candidates. http://www.anzacs.net/who-killed-the-Red-Baron.htm

I'll fess up to being humourless, but I repeat this is not a personal issue for me (read the last para of my previous post). Just that your post was a throwaway joke that I've heard far too many times for it to be funny any more (even to people with a sense of humour). My main interest here is in aviation, and it irks me that myths, and this myth in particular, are repeated by those who should know better. Given that the general thrust of this forum is not WWI aviation specifically, I thought it was worth pointing out that the truth may not be what people have heard repeated endlessly.

Or maybe not worth pointing out. Whatever...

[Jim_Grundy]

Paul

Have to agree with Duckman. Brown got the credit for shooting down MvR for the same reasons as Lothar was credited with bringing down Albert Ball: propaganda, pure and simple.

Cheers,

Jim

[Guest rivnut]

I can't pick out a favorite. There was Cecil Lewis. He was a decent flyer who didn't mind doing the dirty work, flying parasols over the Somme. He still managed to bag a few two seaters when he got to fly SE 5's. He was rather outspoken, with no interest in future preferment. He stepped on a few sensitive toes with his postwar publications so he never became a pet of the military establishment.

I'll dedicate my next beer to Cec Lewis.

Cheers all,

Kev

[Yorts]

A local interest for me would be 2nd Lt. WJ Tempest who shot down the Airship L.31 over Potter's Bar (about 20 minutes from me). He was flying a BE2c with 39 Sqd. at the time and very nearly killed himself in the process. Firing from below the airship went up 'like a chinese lantern' and nearly fell on his aircraft. Leefe Robinson also claimed the first Victory over a Zep near me, but whilst L-R is well remembered, Tempest seems to have fallen into obscurity as far as local memorials go.

2nd Lt F Sowery also deserves a mention as he also shot down a Zep a week before Tempest.

Rgds,

Alex.

[Laurent]

No Doubt...MANNOCK the best of the best !

On the map, 4 points where Mannock plane's crash...

[Edward_N_Kelly]

No Doubt...MANNOCK the best of the best !

On the map, 4 points where Mannock plane's crash...

Must have broken up in mid- air !

Anyway - back to the subject.

I have a penchant for Lanoe Hawker (from an age when fighting aircraft were rare) or Ross Smith (in a different theatre and flying "Brisfits")......

Edward

[Ferret_uk]

Philip Fullard, all round good egg, plus ive got the same surname .

Mick.

[Guest Biplane pilot]

Favorite? Hmmm...many hoofprints leading in, few leading out.

Boelcke. Nobody else comes close for long-term influence.

High in the under-rated category: Gerhard Fieseler, not only for his wartime record (which was substantial in the Macedonian area) but his multiple postwar aerobatic championships and, of course, his innovative aeroplane firm.

[Guest Flieger]

Add to the highly underrated aviator catagory Oblt. Gerhard Felmy

Serving in Palestine, he conducted highly successful sabotage missions behind Allied lines and gained 5 air victories. He earned a well deserverd reputation on both sides of the line as the most deadly and chivalrous pilot in this theatre and was known as the "sportsman"

Although largely unknown, this aviator had a career which hollywood would have a hard time adding too.

[Stephen White]

Can't say i really have a favourite Pilot as i can only name about a dozen.

But if i really had to be pressed,i red an account some time ago about Reginald Warneford and the shooting down of L37,in june 1915 when the RFC was still in it's infancy.Quite a character who didn't last to long unfortunately,so i'd say him.

I know there were bigger and better who came after,but he was one of the early ones to do something that caught peoples attention.

Steven

[Guest dave65]

William Barker why just afew....

never lost a wing man

spy drop

40 plus kills in same plane (b6313)

53 kills

cool devil on guns

60 to 1 fight

Canadian

abit of a prankster ,buzzing some high ups

took the prince behind enemy lines for a joy ride

My favorite plane

Albatross d 3 because they look cool

[Stephen White]

William Barker why just afew....

never lost a wing man

spy drop

40 plus kills in same plane (b6313)

53 kills

cool devil on guns

60 to 1 fight

Hasn't there been some doubt over the "60 to 1" incident ??.The latest to dispute the story being his latest biographer Wayne Ralph.

I understand the fuselage of his plane (a Snipe i believe) was supposed to have been on display until around 1996 and is supposed to have shown little evidence of bullett damage !!.

Steven

[Guest Biplane pilot]

Wayne Ralph's bio of Barker is excellent, and though I don't recall the details, it's true that Barker's Snipe showed very little battle damage. That's because almost every 7.92 round that hit the airframe also hit Barker!

There's severe doubt about the 60-1 odds. In the first place, that late in the war the German air service was very short of fuel. There was no need (let alone ability) to assemble 60 jagdfliegern in one piece of sky when so much of the front was uncovered. But whatever the numbers, Barker was badly outnumbered. I think that Ralph mentioned BB hardly ever referred to the VC event, as he was embarrassed at having got into that mess in the first place!