simon2 Posted 16 July , 2006 Share Posted 16 July , 2006 Evening, I have a GU who emmigrated to Canada sometime around 1900-1910 ?. Unfortunately I have checked ships passenger lists but could not narrow the date down. I have managed to download his attestation papers from collectionscanada.ca and I am certain I have the right man. It basically says that he was drafted (#7 Forestry draft) 02/05/1917 into the CEF and was past medically fit. He had already by this time served as a Pte in the 12th York Rangers for 2 years(unsure of dates). Questions I have :- Where can I find his service papers ? Without his SP's can I find out which unit he served with ? Would he have served with the 12th as a territorial or a regular ? How long would he have to have lived in Canada to be drafted ? As a draftee with experience would he have joined the 12th, other units or did he have a choice ? I know by reading the history, the 12th served with distinction during the war and it would be nice just to have an idea as too his part in the equation. Many thanks in advance. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 I may be misunderstanding the situation, but I shall start off with these observations: 1. You can order the service papers from Ottawa. There are instructions with the "Soldiers of the First World War" site where you found the Attestation Papers. Most people have found the service good and the price reasonable. I do not think service records are available on-line. 2. You will probably need his service record to tell where he ended up exactly. It is a good guess, however, that he stayed with the Canadian Forrestry Corps, since it was into that corps that he enlisted. Unfortunately, there were many different forrestry companies in France and England. You could try sifting through the on-line war diaries to see if he is mentioned, but that would be a long shot (and very tedious!). 3. The 12th York Rangers were a pre war Toronto militia regiment. I do not believe your fellow's service there would have affected where he ended up in the C.E.F. I presume that if he joined the Forrestry Corps, then that is where he ended up. I suppose it is possible that if he was graded into an "A" medical category, he may have been posted to the infantry, but that would be speculation. I hope someone can provide more help than what I have been capable of. :-) P.S. I should have mentioned that the term DRAFT here does not mean your man was conscripted. Draft means a body of men sent to reinforce a unit already overseas. Conscription in Canada did not come into force until late in 1917. Your man was a volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13tolmie Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Evening, I have a GU who emmigrated to Canada sometime around 1900-1910 ?. Unfortunately I have checked ships passenger lists but could not narrow the date down. I have managed to download his attestation papers from collectionscanada.ca and I am certain I have the right man. It basically says that he was drafted (#7 Forestry draft) 02/05/1917 into the CEF and was past medically fit. He had already by this time served as a Pte in the 12th York Rangers for 2 years(unsure of dates). Questions I have :- Where can I find his service papers ? Without his SP's can I find out which unit he served with ? Would he have served with the 12th as a territorial or a regular ? How long would he have to have lived in Canada to be drafted ? As a draftee with experience would he have joined the 12th, other units or did he have a choice ? I know by reading the history, the 12th served with distinction during the war and it would be nice just to have an idea as too his part in the equation. Many thanks in advance. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13tolmie Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Simon The complete Service Record of a Canadian soldier who fought in W.W. I can be obtained through Library and Archives Canada. Go to www.collectionscanada.ca/02/0201060101_e.html Address- National Archives of Canada, Personnel Records Unit Researcher Services Division Ottawa Ontario Canada K1A ON3 Telephone 1-613-995-5138 FAZ-1-613-947-8456 Toll Free Number-1-866-578-7777 You might also want to have a look at the World War I War Diaries at Library and Archives as well. They are the records kept by each unit of the day to day activities in their sector. Wendy Toronto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon2 Posted 17 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Jhill, Wendy, Many thanks. I will try NA-Ottawa to obtain his service papers. I have been speaking to my Auntie today who's uncle this is and she remembers he definately left England before WW1 and only ever returned once during the end of the war but was wearing a kilt. What Canadian regiments wore kilts? I have a photo( see avatar) which shows a kilted soldier standing next to a relative who I haven't identified as yet. I posted it on this forum and was told it was the Black Watch. Is it possible it was mistaken and is my GU but a Canadian Scottish Regiment. Would his service papers include his time with the York Rangers or is it seperate and lastly I know he had 2 sons and would like to trace the line. Are there census records available in Canada as I have his address in 1917 and could work forward. Regards, Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc leroux Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 There were quite a few Canadian Scottish Battalions. You may be able to tell from the regimental number where he started, but you will need his record to determine where he ended up. You can try looking up the starting point based on the regimental number here. The 1901 and 1911 census are available on-line, although the transcription of the 1911 is still in progress. Good luck marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon2 Posted 17 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Marc, Thankyou, All the links you provided have become fruitful. His regimental number range falls into the Forestry Battalion draft. Did the Forestry Battalion serve overseas. I tried to look for any medals issued (BWM,VM) but none were listed. It is possible he only served at home. I am just waiting for an email back from the Archives in Ottawa to see if they can scan and send the images electronically. Regards, Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc leroux Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 The forestry Corps were not trained as regular soldiers; they were specialists and considered noncombatants. By the end of the war there were 18,240 in France, 13,207 in the UK. I'm not sure what medals they would have received, but I did check and one Private was awarded the Military medal. Hope this helps. Please let me know if the Archives will send the information electronicaly. I tend to doubt it, but it would certainly simplify things if they did. marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borden Battery Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Hello Simon I have attached the Order of Battle for the Canadian Corps as of 11 November 1918. Note Forestry is listed at the bottom. Also, if you download the Official History of the Canadian Expeditionary Force there is a special section on Forestry. Regards Borden Battery --------------------------------------- Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War Canadian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919, Colonel G. W. L. Nicholson, C.D., Army Historical Section This is the classic reference text [the Bible] for any student of the Canadian Expeditionary Force during the Great War. The original textbook is very difficult to obtain, however, the document is now available in the Adobe .pdf format directly from the historical section of the Canadian Armed Forces website. This document can be “key-word” searched for specific military units, locations and dates. [Note: The pagination in the online document is different than the original document - therefore formal citations with page number references cannot be used.] http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/downloads/O...ories/CEF_e.PDF ORDER OF BATTLE: THE CANADIAN CORPS AND OTHER CANADIAN FORMATIONS IN THE FIELD NOVEMBER 1918 Sources: Marching to Armageddon (1989), Morton and Granatstein CEF Study Group input from 15 October - 11 November 2004 1st Canadian Division Artillery: 1st Brigade, C.F.A. 2nd Brigade, C.F.A. 1st Field Battery 5th Field Battery 3rd Field Battery 6th Field Battery 4th Field Battery 7th Field Battery 2nd Howitzer Battery 48th Howitzer Battery 1st Division Ammunition Column Engineers: 1st Brigade, C. E. 1st Battalion 2nd Battalion 3rd Battalion 1st Division Signal Company Infantry: 1st Infantry Brigade 1st (Western Ontario) Battalion 2nd (Eastern Ontario) Battalion 3rd (Toronto Regiment) Battalion 4th (Central Ontario) Battalion 1st Trench Mortar Battery 2nd Infantry Brigade 5th (Western Cavalry) Battalion 7th (1st British Columbia Regiment) Battalion 8th (90th Rifles) Battalion 10th (Western Canadians) Battalion 2nd Trench Mortar Battery 3rd Infantry Brigade 13th (Royal Highlanders of Canada) Battalion 14th (Royal Montreal Regiment) Battalion 15th (48th Highlanders of Canada) Battalion 16th (The Canadian Scottish) Battalion 3rd Trench Mortar Battery Machine Gun Corps: 1st Battalion, C.M.G.C. Army Service Corps: 1st Divisional Train, C.A.S.C. Army Medical Corps: 1st, 2nd, 3rd Field Ambulances, C.A.M.C. Army Medical Corps: 1st, 2nd, 3rd Field Ambulances, C.A.M.C. 1st Canadian Sanitary Section 1st Canadian Mobile Veterinary Section Attached: V/1st Canadian Heavy Trench Mortar Battery, RA X/1st Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA Y/1st Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA 1st Pontoon Bridging Transport Unit ================================== 2nd Canadian Division Artillery: 5th Brigade, C.F.A. 6th Brigade, C.F.A. 17th Field Battery 15th Field Battery 18th Field Battery 16th Field Battery 20th Field Battery 25th Field Battery 23rd Howitzer Battery 22nd Howitzer Battery 2nd Division Ammunition Column Engineers: 2nd Brigade, C.E. 4th Battalion 5th Battalion 6th Battalion 2nd Division Signal Company Infantry: 4th Infantry Brigade 18th (Western Ontario) Battalion 19th (Central Ontario) Battalion 20th (Central Ontario) Battalion 21st (Eastern Ontario) Battalion 4th Trench Mortar Battery 5th Infantry Brigade 22nd (French Canadian) Battalion 24th (Victoria Rifles of Canada) Battalion 25th (Nova Scotia Rifles) Battalion 26th (New Brunswick) Battalion 5th Trench Mortar Battery 6th Infantry Brigade 27th (City of Winnipeg Battalion) 28th (Northwest) Battalion 29th (Vancouver) Battalion 31st (Alberta) Battalion 6th Trench Mortar Battery Machine Gun Corps: 2nd Battalion, C.M.G.C. Army Service Corps: 2nd Divisional Train, C.A.S.C. Army Medical Corps: 4th, 5th, 6th Field Ambulances, C.A.M.C. 2nd Canadian Sanitary Section 2nd Canadian Mobile Veterinary Section Attached: V/2nd Canadian Heavy Trench Mortar Battery, RA X/2nd Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA Y/2nd Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA 2nd Pontoon Bridging Transport Unit ================================== 3rd Canadian Division Artillery: 9th Brigade, C.F.A. 10th Brigade, C.F.A. 31st Field Battery 38th Field Battery 33rd Field Battery 39th Field Battery 45th Field Battery 40th Field Battery 36th Howitzer Battery 35th Howitzer Battery 3rd Division Ammunition Column Engineers: 3rd Brigade, C.E. 7th Battalion 8th Battalion 9th Battalion 3rd Division Signal Company Infantry: 7th Infantry Brigade The Royal Canadian Regiment Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry 42nd (Royal Highlanders of Canada) Battalion 49th (Edmonton Regiment) Battalion 7th Trench Mortar Battery 8th Infantry Brigade 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion 8th Trench Mortar Battery 9th Infantry Brigade 43rd (Cameron Highlanders of Canada) Battalion 52nd (New Ontario) Battalion 58th (Central Ontario) Battalion 60th (Victoria Rifles of Canada) Battalion (replaced, April 1917, by 116th [Central Ontario] Battalion) 9th Trench Mortar Battery Machine Gun Corps: 3rd Battalion, C.M.G.C. Army Service Corps: 3rd Divisional Train, C.A.S.C. Army Medical Corps: 8th, 9th, 10th Field Ambulances, C.A.M.C. 3rd Canadian Sanitary Section 3rd Canadian Mobile Veterinary Section Attached: V/3rd Canadian Heavy Trench Mortar Battery, RA X/3rd Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA Y/3rd Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA 3rd Pontoon Bridging Transport Unit ================================== 4th Canadian Division Artillery: 3rd Brigade, C.F.A. 4th Brigade, C.F.A. 10th Field Battery 13th Field Battery 11th Field Battery 19th Field Battery 12th Field Battery 27th Field Battery 9th Howitzer Battery 21st Howitzer Battery 4th Division Ammunition Column Engineers: 4th Brigade, C.E. 10th Battalion 11th Battalion 12th Battalion 4th Division Signal Company Infantry: 10th Infantry Brigade 44th (Manitoba) Battalion (re-designated "New Brunswick", August 1918) 46th (South Saskatchewan) Battalion 47th (British Columbia) Battalion (re-designated "Western Ontario", February 1918) 50th (Calgary) Battalion 10th Trench Mortar Battery 11th Infantry Brigade 54th (Kootenay) Battalion (re-designated "Central Ontario", August 1917) 75th (Mississauga) Battalion 87th (Canadian Grenadier Guards) Battalion 102nd (North British Columbians) Battalion (re-designated "Central Ontario", August 1917) 11th Trench Mortar Battery 12th Infantry Brigade 38th (Ottawa) Battalion 72nd (Seaforth Highlanders of Canada) Battalion 73rd (Royal Highlanders of Canada) Battalion (replaced by 85th [NS Highlanders] Battalion, April 1917) 78th (Winnipeg Grenadiers) Battalion Machine Gun Corps: 4th Battalion, C.M.G.C. Army Service Corps: 4th Divisional Train, C.A.S.C. Army Medical Corps: 11th, 12th, 13th Field Ambulances, C.A.M.C. 4th Canadian Sanitary Section 4th Canadian Mobile Veterinary Section Attached: V/4th Canadian Heavy Trench Mortar Battery, RA X/4th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA Y/4th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, RA 4th Pontoon Bridging Transport Unit ================================== Canadian Corps Troops Cavalry: Canadian Light Horse Artillery: Corps Heavy Artillery 1st Brigade, C.G.A. 2nd Brigade, C.G.A. 1st Siege Battery 1st Heavy Battery 3rd Siege Battery 2nd Heavy Battery 7th Siege Battery 2nd Siege Battery 9th Siege Battery 4th Siege Battery 5th Siege Battery 6th Siege Battery 3rd Brigade, C.G.A. 5th Divisional Artillery 8th Siege Battery 13th Brigade, C.F.A. 10th Siege Battery 52nd Field Battery 11th Siege Battery 53rd Field Battery 12th Siege Battery 55th Field Battery 51st Howitzer Battery 14th Brigade, C.F.A. 60th Field Battery 61st Field Battery 66th Field Battery 58th Howitzer Battery 5th Division Ammunition Column Engineers: Anti-Aircraft Searchlight Company 3rd Tunnelling Company Corps Survey Company 1st Tramways Company 2nd Tramways Company Corps Signal Company Machine Gun Corps: 1st Motor Machine Gun Brigade, C.M.G.C. 2nd Motor Machine Gun Brigade, C.M.G.C. Army Service Troops Motor Transport Company C.A.S.C. Corps: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Division Motor Transport Companies, C.A.S.C 5th Divisional Artillery Motor Transport Detachment Engineers Motor Transport Company, C.A.S.C. Motor Machine Gun Motor Transport Company, C.A.S.C. 5th Divisional Train Detachment, C.A.S.C. Army Medical 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th General Hospitals, C.A.M.C. Corps: 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 6th, 9th, 10th Stationary Hospitals, C.A.M.C. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th Forestry Corps Hospitals 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Casualty Clearing Stations. C.A.M.C. 14th Field Ambulance, C.A.WC. ================================== Miscellaneous Units Canadian Cyclist Battalion Corps Reinforcement Camp Corps Schools Corps Signal Company Canadian Tunnelling Companies, CE Canadian Ordinance Corps Canadian Cavalry Brigade Cavalry: Royal Canadian Dragoons Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) Fort Garry Horse R.N.W.M.P. Squadron Artillery: Royal Canadian Horse Artillery Brigade Army Medical Corps: 7th (Cavalry) Field Ambulance, C.A.M.C. CASC 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Field Bakery units Canadian Railway Troops HQ CRT (France) 1-14th Battalions Canadian Railway Troops 1-4 Section Skilled Railway Employees CRT Depot CRT Railway Guards CRT Canadian Overseas Railway Construction Corps ================================== Army Troops (Attached to the British Expeditionary Force) Artillery: 8th Army Brigade, C.F.A. 24th Field Battery 30th Field Battery 32nd Field Battery 43rd Howitzer Battery 8th Army Brigade Ammunition Column "E" Anti-Aircraft Battery Engineers: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th Army Troops Companies Railway Troops: Canadian Overseas Railway Construction Corps (1st to 13th Battalions) Forestry Corps: 58 companies, C.F.C. HQ Directorate of Timber Operations (France) CFC HQ No. 1 District No. 1 District Workshop Nos. 20, 30, 31, 41, 42, 43, 44, 54 Companies CFC HQ No. 2 District No. 2 District Workshop Noose 14, 19, 23, 24, 32, 34 Companies CFC Jura Group HQ HQ No. 4 District Nos. 27, 55, 78, 79, 80 Cos. HQ No. 5 District No. 5 District Workshop No. 2 Construction Company CFC Nos. 21, 22, 39, 40, 47, 50, 32, 57, 58, 70 Companies CFC HQ No. 6 District Nos. 28, 51, 56, 69, 77 Companies CFC HQ Bordeux Group HQ No. 9 District No. 9 District Workshop Nos. 1, 2, 9, 25, 26, 29, 35, 37 Cos CFC HQ Marne Group HQ No. 10 District Nos. 31, 33, 70 Cos CFC HQ No. 11 District Nos. 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 75 Cos CFC HQ No. 12 District No. 12 District Workshop Nos. 15, 45, 46, 48, 49, 53, 59, 60, 71, 72, 73, 74 Cos CFC HQ Central Group Paris Detachment CFC Forestry Hospitals (3) - One Full Hospital, Two Detention Hospitals Technical Warehouse, CFC, Le Havre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon2 Posted 17 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Hi Marc, Just a little puzzled. If the Forestry Corps were specialists( I can guess how) what could someone with a day to day job as a chauffeur offer them. As an afterthought if he had spent two years in the militia, probably trained as an infantryman, why would they accept him into a non combatant role. Would you know how long someone would have to have lived in Canada before volunteering for that countries armed services or would they have accepted him anyway. Thanks again for your help, Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon2 Posted 17 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Borden Battery, Sorry I was busy posting before I realised you had offered assistance. Very impressive list. I have stored it for future reference as it is very comprehensive. Looking at it logically( no BWM,VM issued ) it is possible he served overseas but only in England. That is probably the time he popped in to see relatives. The kilt thing still puzzles me though. I'll be able to clarify things once his service papers arrive. I re-read the archives website and no emailing of material allowed, all by post so I'll have to wait awhile. All the best, Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borden Battery Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Hello Simon If you want the names of quality researches to access and forward the military records ... send me a PM ... I can recommend a couple people ... one person has been doing research work for me for about 5 years and is good and reasonably priced. Regards Borden Battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc leroux Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 If the Forestry Corps were specialists( I can guess how) what could someone with a day to day job as a chauffeur offer them. As an afterthought if he had spent two years in the militia, probably trained as an infantryman, why would they accept him into a non combatant role. Good questions, and I have no answers. You'll need to look at his records. Would you know how long someone would have to have lived in Canada before volunteering for that countries armed services or would they have accepted him anyway. Canada was part of the British Empire, he could have joined at any point. marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borden Battery Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Because the Canadian Corps accepted volunteers and paid much better than the British Expeditionary Force, British Subjects could join in England. The soldier remembered today [ Pte Alexander BREBNER 424088 5 Bn, Canadian Infantry who died aged 30 on 17.07.17. Loos British Cemetery, France] was from Glasgow, Scotland and joined the CEF in Shornecliffe. Borden Battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Because the Canadian Corps accepted volunteers and paid much better than the British Expeditionary Force, British Subjects could join in England. The soldier remembered today [ Pte Alexander BREBNER 424088 5 Bn, Canadian Infantry who died aged 30 on 17.07.17. Loos British Cemetery, France] was from Glasgow, Scotland and joined the CEF in Shornecliffe. Borden Battery Yikes! There is something funny about this one. I think we have discussed this issue before. It is undeniable that some units of the First Contingent recruited in England in late 1914, usually to fill vacancies in specialist units. However, this proceedure seems to have been stopped quite early on, apparently when the War Office accused the Canadians of "poaching". I remember seeing a reference in one of the contemporary daily orders, but I cannot put my finger on it right now. Pte. Brebner's attestation is curious in many respects, as are those of the first 250 - odd in his battalion, the 45th (Brandon). They are almost all the same, dated at Shorncliffe about July 16, 17 of 1915. Many are annotated "certified true copy". Many of these men seem undeniably Canadian. In addition the 45th did not sail for England until March of 1916. I suspect these men were, in fact, the first reinforcement draft which the 45th, like most battalions at the time, sent overseas to reinforce other units at the front. Each of these drafts consisted of 250 men, so the numbers pretty well work out. I suspect the draft showed up at 9th Reserve Battalion without their papers. Rather than waiting for documentation to arrive from Canada, they just filled in a new form at Shorncliffe, from memory. I suspect something like this whenever I see that "certified true copy" stamp. Of course, I am reaching for some of this! I would be interested in more hard information. Thanks for bringing the topic up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borden Battery Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Also, if you check the Regimental Number (424088) you will find there are two men assigned the same number - so there may be another story to be told on this fellow. Borden Battery Library and Archives Canada - Soldiers of the First World War (1914-1918) Over 600,000 Canadians enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) during the First World War (1914-1918). The CEF database is an index to those personnel files, which are held by the National Archives. To date, over 800,000 images of Attestation papers have been scanned and are being made available on-line. This material can be downloaded at no charge. The file format is a standard JPEG file. From this basic information a researcher can obtain the necessary information to acquire the full military file of a Great War soldier, however, in this latter case there will be a research fee. The CEF Study Group maintains a list of recommended National Archives researchers. [NOTE: Attestation registers (RG 9 II B8 ) contained in volumes 1 to 654 and may only be consulted at the Library and Archives Canada – they are not yet scanned and online.] http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/02010602_e.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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