15th July 1916 16th K.R.R.C. High Wood

[Audax]

conijoni,

Thanks for posting the pic of J R Smith, it looks as if the officer (Lt) next to him is Hichens. Who was hit in the leg and whilst bandaging his foot again hit in the head and died immediately. At High Wood Capt J R Smith waswith 'D' Coy and Hichens with 'C'

'A' - Capt Cooban

'B' - Capt Deedes

'C' Capt Donaldson

'D' Capt Smith

Audax

[Audax]

Major A D Cooban is commemorated on the War Memorial in Prenton, Birkenhead see http://www.carlscam.com/warmem/prenton.htm

[jacks4jules]

Doe's anybody know the total casualty figures of the 16th KRRC for this attack wounded missing Killed?

[MBrockway]

Doe's anybody know the total casualty figures of the 16th KRRC for this attack wounded missing Killed?

War Diary has the following up to 17:40 hrs:

This is only the wounded passing through the RAP and excludes the missing, killed and captured. Further casualties are likely to have been passed back down the line during the evening too.

A list of 16/KRRC officer casualties is in the KRRC Annals.

I could find no further casualty figures in the 16/KRRC War Diary, nor the KRRC Chronicle, nor A Brief History of the KRRC.

Cheers,

Mark

[Audax]

Captain John Muir Donaldson M.C. Wounded at HIGH WOOD 15th July 1916. (See KRRC Chronicle 1916 p.247)

Citation for Military Cross - 25th August 1916

Temp. Capt. John Muir Donaldson, K. R.

Rif. C.

For conspicuous gallantry in action.

Although wounded he remained with his

company, encouraging them on under heavy

shell, rifle and machine-gun fire, until he

was hit again and forced to retire.

[Audax]

KING'S ROYAL RIFLE CORPS (Peter Wardrop Collection)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lot 123, 15 Dec 00

Collection: KING'S ROYAL RIFLE CORPS (Peter Wardrop Collection)

Category: GROUPS AND SINGLE DECORATIONS FOR GALLANTRY

Estimate: £250-£300

Hammer Price: £400

Description

A good Great War ‘High Wood’ M.M. group of four awarded to Sergeant W. Crook, 16th (Church Lads Brigade) Battalion, King’s Royal Rifle Corps, who was killed in action in 1917

Military Medal, G.V.R. (C.194 Cpl., 16/K.R.R.C.); 1914-15 Star (C-194 L. Cpl., K.R. Rif. C.); British War and Victory Medals (C-194 Sjt., K. R. Rif. C.) nearly extremely fine (4) £250-300

Footnote

William Crook was born and enlisted at Bolton, Lancashire. He was killed in action in France and Flanders on 24 September 1917.

The following detail is extracted from the Bolton Journal & Guardian, 12 October 1917: ‘On visiting a friend in another part of the trench he was hit by shrapnel fire, and on being taken to a dug out, died there on 24 September 1917. He enlisted in 1914 and went to France in November 1915 with his battalion. Awarded the Military Medal for rescuing wounded comrades at the Battle of High Wood on 6 July 1916. On the 7th September he was sent home on sick leave, suffering from dysentry and spent six months in hospital, before being posted back to France on 27 July 1917.’

[jacks4jules]

Thanks for posting very impressed. I am the current guardian of William Crooks medals.

I shall post some newspaper cuttings I have from Bolton soon as I have time to scan them.

The Mayor of Bolton presented William's Military medal only a few week's before he returned to the front.

Before the war William was a keen cricketer playing for Astley Bridge.

Which auction house did the medals sell through please ?

Thanks for posting

KING'S ROYAL RIFLE CORPS (Peter Wardrop Collection)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lot 123, 15 Dec 00

Collection: KING'S ROYAL RIFLE CORPS (Peter Wardrop Collection)

Category: GROUPS AND SINGLE DECORATIONS FOR GALLANTRY

Estimate: £250-£300

Hammer Price: £400

Description

A good Great War ‘High Wood’ M.M. group of four awarded to Sergeant W. Crook, 16th (Church Lads Brigade) Battalion, King’s Royal Rifle Corps, who was killed in action in 1917

Military Medal, G.V.R. (C.194 Cpl., 16/K.R.R.C.); 1914-15 Star (C-194 L. Cpl., K.R. Rif. C.); British War and Victory Medals (C-194 Sjt., K. R. Rif. C.) nearly extremely fine (4) £250-300

Footnote

William Crook was born and enlisted at Bolton, Lancashire. He was killed in action in France and Flanders on 24 September 1917.

The following detail is extracted from the Bolton Journal & Guardian, 12 October 1917: ‘On visiting a friend in another part of the trench he was hit by shrapnel fire, and on being taken to a dug out, died there on 24 September 1917. He enlisted in 1914 and went to France in November 1915 with his battalion. Awarded the Military Medal for rescuing wounded comrades at the Battle of High Wood on 6 July 1916. On the 7th September he was sent home on sick leave, suffering from dysentry and spent six months in hospital, before being posted back to France on 27 July 1917.’

[jacks4jules]

Thank you for posting.

War Diary has the following up to 17:40 hrs:

This is only the wounded passing through the RAP and excludes the missing, killed and captured. Further casualties are likely to have been passed back down the line during the evening too.

A list of 16/KRRC officer casualties is in the KRRC Annals.

I could find no further casualty figures in the 16/KRRC War Diary, nor the KRRC Chronicle, nor A Brief History of the KRRC.

Cheers,

Mark

[Audax]

Sgt Crook's Medal's were sold through DNW (Dix, Noonan & Webb)

Another 16 KRRC MM discussion is to be found here Samuel Ball C-410

Following 16/KRRCs losses at HIGH WOOD they received a number of drafts (some from the Rifle Brigade). Does the War Diary give and details of numbers in these drafts?

Digital Version of 'With The C.L.B. Battalion in France' by Rev James Duncan MA CF Chaplain to the Battalion

A

[MBrockway]

Following 16/KRRCs losses at HIGH WOOD they received a number of drafts (some from the Rifle Brigade). Does the War Diary give and details of numbers in these drafts?

A

Audax,

Draft details in the WD rather sketchy ...

18 Jul [Wood Trench] ... A draft of 79 OR joined the Btn.

19 Jul [Wood Trench] ... Draft of 3 new officers arrived at Btn Hdqs at 2.30 p.m. They were put in the following Coys. 2/Lt WHATELY A Coy. 2/Lt BEVAN B Coy. 2/Lt REED C Coy.

20 Jul [bazentin-le-Petit] ... Lt Paravicini and 2/Lt Oxley and a class of 5 other ranks joined the Batn. The former being attached to A Coy, the latter to D Coy.

21 Jul [High Wood]

11.45 am Strength Return sent to Bde Hdqs. 1st Queens. 5 officers 225 other Ranks. KRR. 6 officers 214 other Ranks. Officers wounded - Lt Paravincini, 2/Lt Oxley, 2/Lt Reed

4.30 pm Casualty Report sent in for other ranks 4 killed 49 wounded (approx)

22 Jul [becordel-Becourt] ... Draft of 18 ORs arrived also another draft of 161 ORs

23 Jul ... 318 draft arrived other Ranks.

07 Aug [Camp near Bernancourt] ... marched off at 4.0 am - 9 officers 700 OR. [Marching back to front line at Mametz after period of rest & training]

That's all I could see. Some shocking numbers there too

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[rap1943]

Audax

Thanks for posting the lionk to Rev Duncan's book

Cheers

Bob

[Audax]

Mark, Thanks for WD extracts. Does it say how strong the Battalion was before it went into action on the 15th July?

I wonder whether anyone has seen this entry on wikepedia? As the site says - there are no citations to support the statement about the 16/KRRC

Wikepedia - Battle of Bazentine Ridge

There is a photo of the 16 KRRC in Rayleigh in 1915 on this site Chesham Museum

A

[conijoni]

Mark, Thanks for WD extracts. Does it say how strong the Battalion was before it went into action on the 15th July?

I wonder whether anyone has seen this entry on wikepedia? As the site says - there are no citations to support the statement about the 16/KRRC

The figures ... more than 200 went in, 67 came out ... come from Lyn Macdonald's book, Somme. Quoted by Jack Beament ... see P.155.

We know that the Battalion suffered approx 550 casualties at High Wood. Strength quoted in previous post after High Wood at 6 Off and 214 ORs. So we are looking at a number about 770. This would tie in with the 200 number quoted by Beament, ie 4 companies approx 200 in each, nearly 800 men.

[MBrockway]

Audax

Thanks for posting the lionk to Rev Duncan's book

Cheers

Bob

Audax - Hear! Hear! I can keep my precious copy safe and read it on-line now :-)

Bob - good to hear you! How you doing Down Under?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Audax / Jonny,

Working backwards in the WD I found this ...

08 Jul [busnettes] Received orders from Bde for train movement. To entrain at LILLERS at 1.50 am on the 9th. Batn paraded at 12.0 midnight and entrained. Strength. 27 officers 877 other ranks. TOTAL 904.

There were probably a number of losses while the battalion made its way forward before High Wood on the 15th, but Jonny's figures look about spot on I'd say.

Not forgotten

Incidentally Andy and I have managed to narrow the time window when my own grandfather transferred into 16/KRRC from 12/KRRC to between Nov 1915 and Nov 1916, so there's a good chance he was also at High Wood.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

There is a photo of the 16 KRRC in Rayleigh in 1915 on this site Chesham Museum

A

Audax,

IIRC Pal riflegreen posted some other pictures of 16/KRRC at Rayleigh in an earlier Topic.

Cheers,

Mark

[Audax]

Mark / Bob,

You can also purchase a print on demand copy from amazon AMAZON

Just found the fascinating thread on C/1119 L/Cpl G H Tranter

A

[Audax]

Speech by Francis Grenfell during a House of Lords debate on the Training of the Nation on 26th July 1916

(Note BOLD TYPE)

My Lords, before I say a few words on the question of national training I should like to join with the noble and learned Lord (Lord Parmoor) in his high appreciation of the action of the noble and learned Viscount in the creation of the Officers Training Corps. The movement was welcomed highly in the Army when it was first initiated, and after the war had progressed for about a year I do not know what we could have done to supply officers for the Army had it not been for this corps which the noble and learned Viscount so wisely formed. Only a few days ago I was at Winchester and inspected a detachment of the Officers Training Corps there. About twenty of these young men were going away to regiments, and were so highly trained that they would require but a very short time before they would be able to join their units at the Front. Winchester has already lost fifteen officers killed and many wounded, and has supplied an extraordinarily large number of officers through this corps.

The most rev. Primate, in his speech on the second day of this debate, referred to a corps with which I am connected and about which I wish to say a few words. As was stated by the noble Viscount, at the age of 14 a boy, as a rule, changes his habits; he breaks away from all moral, social, and very often religious influences, and that is the time when he most requires a guiding hand. I think that the various cadet corps are most useful at that particular period. Of the one with which I am connected, the Church Lads Brigade, I have been governor and commandant for eight years; I was preceded in the commandant-ship by my noble friend Lord Methuen, and before him by Lord Chelmsford; and I may say that now, after twenty years' hard work, the brigade has arrived at a very great state of efficiency. Your Lordships will pardon me if I speak about my own corps, but in doing so I do not wish to depreciate in any way the work of other boys brigades which are doing such excellent work.

In the Church Lads Brigade we have now 60,000 lads in England all under training; and in Australia, Africa, Canada, Newfoundland, and the West Indies we have companies of the brigade. The other day, when I was inspecting a battalion which had been raised from this brigade, I noticed two very dark-looking youths. I asked who they were, and was told that they had paid their passage from the West Indies, they having been members of the Church Lads Brigade there, to come over and join a battalion which was then going out to the Front, which shows the enthusiasm these lads display for the Service. In addition to the 60,000 youths that we are now training as best we can, we have a system of an old comrades association, and when the war broke out I asked Lord Kitchener if he would permit me to raise a battalion from those ex-members of the Church Lads Brigade. He said he would be glad if I did so, and I proposed to provide a battalion of 1,100 strong. In a few days I had offers of 2,500. That was at the very beginning of the war. Out of them I was able to form one of the finest battalions of the King's Royal Rifle Corps, which I served in and of which this battalion now forms a part. This battalion, I regret to say, is now very greatly diminished in strength. It lost in one of the attacks during the last week nearly half its strength, and more than half the number of its officers. But I am glad to say that it behaved with the greatest possible gallantry. The colonel, writing to me, wounded as ho was, from one of the dressing stations, said— The objective was a trench 1,000 yards distant, with unbroken wire before it, and enfiladed on one flank by the German machine guns, but the battalion was as steady as if on parade; the men behaved splendidly. And he added that there were hardly any officers—only two that he knew of—who had come back unwounded. I do not mention this as anything peculiar, because every battalion of the New Armies has behaved in that gallant way; still it is a great satisfaction to those who have taken an interest in the Church Lads Brigade to know that these men, all drawn from its ranks, should have behaved in such a gallant manner.

I believe that the training which these lads get in the various brigades—especially so in the Church Lads Brigade, because it is connected with religion—is most valuable, and we owe the deepest thanks to the most rev. Primate for his assistance and for the interest he has taken in the movement. But I do not speak of soldiering only. In various walks of life we keep up with these boys; most of them belong to the old comrades association, and in nearly every walk in life we find that the boys who have passed through these brigades—not only our brigade—succeed a great deal better than if they had not passed through the curriculum which we give them. Therefore I am anxious, as a finale to my few remarks, to press upon the Government the great advantages of these cadet corps. At present we get no grant. We do not particularly ask for one, because we do get transport occasionally, and we get bands, and armament, and occasionally munitions. But we hope that this question, after the war, will be taken up seriously in the elementary schools. We know what a great advantage this training is, and we trust that this question will be taken up and cadet corps initiated generally. There are very few at present; in fact, the Church Lads Brigade consists of half of the whole of the cadets in England. We should like to see our brethren growing up round us in greater numbers. And when the question is taken up we hope that the existing corps will be left alone, to a certain extent at least, to manage their own affairs, and that some scheme may be arranged whereby the various new corps may be as similar as possible to the corps which at present exist. I feel sure that the education they get can rightly be considered as part of the training of the nation, and I sincerely hope that this matter will be seriously taken up at the end of the war.

[Audax]

Rifleman H Pierce C/30 Spr Henry Pierce

[conijoni]

"The Hell They Called High Wood" (Norman) quotes casualty figures for 16th KRRC at High Wood - 550. Can't remember the page and can't find my copy.

[rap1943]

Hi Johnny, Mark, Audax

Do you think it's possible to say if my father was at High Wood. I know he was wounded at some stage during the war but have know idea when.

Mark - Down Under is still here, a long way from anywhere. Hope to make a trip over next year

Cheers

Bob

[Audax]

An usual story here - C/482 Rifleman Charles Tipping St Luke's Brighton

[Audax]

Details of the original CO of the 16th KRRC:

Lieut.-Col. Charles Kindersley-Porcher, who was edu-

cated at Harrow and at Trinity CoU., Cambridge, and

assumed the additional surname of Porcher by deed

poll 1914, was formerly Lieut. 7th Batt. Imp. Yeo. in

S. Africa, and is Capt. Reserve of Officers, Capt. ret.,

late Coldstream Guards, and Patron of 1 living ;

commanded 16th (Service) Batt. (C.L.B.) King's

E. Rifle Corps, with the temp, rank of Lieut.-

Col., 1914-15.— Dorchester, Dorsetshire; British

Empire Club, s.w.

[Audax]

C/130 Rifleman Charles J Hatt - Colden Common War Memorial

[rwarks]

C-16 PTE C.Gravestock Kings Royal Rifle Corps - 16th Battalion. K.I.A. 15/07/1916

Cecil Gravestock was born in 1896. In 1911 he worked at a local paper mill and was a member of the Church Lads Brigade company number 1810, Croxley Green, Herts, which was part of the 3rd Battalion St.Alban's diocese.

He attested on the 17th September 1914 at Watford, and embarked for France on the 16th November 1915.

Cecil was wounded in action on the 18th February 1916, GSW right arm and right thigh is recorded as his injuries which sounds quite nasty but his record states that he returned to duty only 7 days later on the 25th of the same month.

Leave was granted to Cecil in May, from the 7th to the 31st inclusive. He was definitely back in the ranks by the 12th July 1916 when he was reported for an "Improper remark on parade", his punishment is recorded as 28 days field punishment No.1.

Only 3 days later, on the 15th July 1916, the 16th KRRC where heavily involved in the attack on High Wood. Cecil was killed during the attack along with many of his fellows and is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

I am the current proud guardian of Cecil Gravestock's medal pair along with quite a few more 16/KRRC medals. Below is an image of his medal pair and his picture is shown top right on a page from "The Brigade".