SMG65 Posted 4 July , 2006 Share Posted 4 July , 2006 Does anyone know how many British Generals were killed in action during the Great War? Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audax Posted 4 July , 2006 Share Posted 4 July , 2006 Sean, The Book you need is called 'Bloody Red Tabs, General officer Casualties of the Great War' by Frank Davies and the Late Graham Maddocks. It was published by Leo Cooper in 1995. 'this book sets out to destroy the myth that general officers never went near the Front by giving short biographies of two hundred of them who were killed in the war. Forty six of these were killed in 1916. To buy the book!! http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0850524...ce&n=266239 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 4 July , 2006 Share Posted 4 July , 2006 Sean 78 British officers holding the rank of Brigadier General or above were killed in action, or died as the result of active service, during the Great War, while 176 were wounded. For details, see Bloody Red Tabs by Frank Davies and Grahan Maddocks, ISBN 0 85052 463 6. I hope this helps Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audax Posted 4 July , 2006 Share Posted 4 July , 2006 Richard Holmes in his book 'Tommy' page 212 states 'It is abundantly clear that British Generals of the First World War were more likely to be killed in action than those of the Second. ' On page 213 'If we add together brigadier-generals, then the total for general officers killed or died of wounds on the Western Front is no less than fifty eight. He goes on to say there is no accurate figure for generals of all ranks wounded though he says it probabally comes to more than 300. The figure in my ealier post came from Gliddon's 'legacy of the Somme' by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audax Posted 4 July , 2006 Share Posted 4 July , 2006 Senior Officer Casualties Western Front 1914-1918 Ardee, Reginald, Lord GOC Infantry Brigade 4 (Guards) Bde Gassed Bailey, Vivian Telford GOC Infantry Brigade 142 Bde Wounded Baldock, Thomas Stanford GOC Infantry Division 49th Division Wounded Baldwin, Anthony Hugh GOC Infantry Brigade 38 Bde kia Ballard, Colin Robert GOC Infantry Brigade 95 Bde Wounded Barnett-Barker, Randle GOC Infantry Brigade 99 Bde kia Beckwith, Arthur Thackeray GOC Infantry Brigade 153 Bde Wounded Bellingham, Edward H.C.P. GOC Infantry Brigade 118 Bde pow Borradaile, Harry Benn GOC Infantry Brigade 36 Bde Wounded Borrett, Oswald Cuthbert GOC Infantry Brigade 197 Bde Wounded Borrett, Oswald Cuthbert GOC Infantry Brigade 54 Bde Gassed Bradford, Roland Boys GOC Infantry Brigade 186 Bde kia Brand, Charles Henry GOC Infantry Brigade 4 Australian Bde Wounded Bray, Robert Napier GOC Infantry Brigade 189 Bde Wounded Bremner, Arthur Grant Chief Engineer XIX Corps Wounded Bridges, George Tom Molesworth GOC Infantry Division 19th Division Wounded Bridges, Sir William Throsby GOC Infantry Division 1st Aus Division dow Broadwood, Robert George GOC Infantry Division 57th Division dow Brown, Charles Henry Jeffries GOC Infantry Brigade 1 NZ Bde kia Bruce, Clarence Dalrymple GOC Infantry Brigade 27 Bde pow Bulfin, Edward Stanislaus GOC Infantry Brigade 2 Bde Wounded Bulkeley-Johnson, Charles B. GOC Cavalry Brigade 8 Cavalry Bde kia Bull, George GOC Infantry Brigade 8 Bde dow Cameron, Neville John Gordon GOC Infantry Brigade 103 Bde Wounded Campbell, Herbert Montgomery BGRA 46th Division Wounded Cape, George Augustus Stewart BGRA 39th Division kia Capper, Thompson GOC Infantry Division 7th Division dow Carton de Wiart, Adrian GOC Infantry Brigade 105 Bde Wounded Carton de Wiart, Adrian GOC Infantry Brigade 12 Bde Wounded Clemson, William Fletcher GOC Infantry Brigade 124 Bde Wounded Clifford, Henry Frederick Hugh GOC Infantry Brigade 149 Bde kia Congreve, Walter Norris GOC Corps XIII Corps Wounded Cooper, Richard Joshua GOC Infantry Brigade 29 Bde Wounded Cowans, Ernest Arnold GOC Infantry Brigade 159 Bde Wounded Davies, Henry Rudolph GOC Infantry Division 11th Division Wounded Dawson, Frederick Stuart GOC Infantry Brigade SA Bde pow Dick-Cunyngham, James Keith GOC Infantry Brigade 152 Bde pow Dugan, Winston Joseph GOC Infantry Brigade 184 Bde Wounded East, Lionel William Pellew BGRA XIII Corps kia Eden, Archibald James Ferguson GOC Infantry Brigade 57 Bde Wounded Fagan, Edward Arthur GOC Infantry Brigade 46 Bde Gassed Feetham, Edward GOC Infantry Division 39th Division kia Feilding, Geoffrey Percy Thynne GOC Infantry Brigade 1 (Guards) Bde Wounded Finch, Hamilton Waller Edward GOC Infantry Brigade 190 Bde Wounded Findlay, Neil Douglas BGRA 1st Division kia Fisher, Bertie Drew GOC Infantry Brigade 8 Bde Gassed Fitton, Hugh Gregory GOC Infantry Brigade 101 Bde dow Fitzclarence, Charles GOC Infantry Brigade 1 (Guards) Bde kia Follett, Gilbert Burrell Spencer GOC Infantry Brigade 3 (Guards) Bde kia Forster, George Norman Bowes GOC Infantry Brigade 42 Bde kia Freyberg, Bernard Cyril GOC Infantry Brigade 173 Bde Wounded Fulton, Harry Townshend GOC Infantry Brigade 3 NZ Bde dow Gellibrand, John GOC Infantry Brigade 6 Aus Bde Wounded Glasfurd, Duncan John GOC Infantry Brigade 12 Aus Bde dow Gordon, Alister Fraser GOC Infantry Brigade 153 Bde dow Gordon, Charles William Eric GOC Infantry Brigade 123 Bde kia Gordon-Lennox, Lord Esme C. GOC Infantry Brigade 95 Bde Wounded Gore, Robert Clements GOC Infantry Brigade 101 Bde kia Gosling, Charles GOC Infantry Brigade 7 Bde Wounded Gosling, Charles GOC Infantry Brigade 10 Bde kia Gough, John Edmund MGGS First Army kia Granet, E.J. BGRA 11th Division Wounded Green, Henry Clifford Rodes GOC Infantry Brigade 20 Bde Wounded Griffin, Christopher Joseph GOC Infantry Brigade 7 Bde Wounded Haggard, Henry GOC Infantry Brigade 32 Bde Wounded Haking, Richard Cyril Byrne GOC Infantry Brigade 5 Bde Wounded Hamilton, Hubert Ion Wetherall GOC Infantry Division 3rd Division kia Hare, Steuart Wellwood GOC Infantry Brigade 86 Bde Wounded Hart, Herbert Ernest GOC Infantry Brigade 2 NZ Bde Gassed Hart-Synnot, Arthur Henry Seton GOC Infantry Brigade 6 Bde Wounded Hasler, Julian GOC Infantry Brigade 11 Bde kia Heneker, William Charles Giffard GOC Infantry Brigade 54 Bde Wounded Heywood, Cecil Percival GOC Infantry Brigade 3 (Guards) Bde Wounded Heyworth, Frederick James GOC Infantry Brigade 3 (Guards) Bde kia Hibbert, Godfrey Leicester GOC Infantry Brigade 154 Bde Wounded Hoare, Reginald GOC Infantry Brigade 229 Bde Wounded Hodson, George Benjamin GOC Infantry Brigade 33 Bde dow Holmes, Hardress Gilbert GOC Infantry Brigade 8 Bde Wounded Holmes, William GOC Infantry Division 4th Aus Div dow Hornby, Montague Leyland GOC Infantry Brigade 116 Bde Wounded Hubback, Arthur Benison GOC Infantry Brigade 2 Bde Wounded Hulke, Walter Backhouse GOC Infantry Brigade 115 Bde Wounded Husey, Ralph Hamer GOC Infantry Brigade 25 Bde dow Ingouville-Williams, Edward C. GOC Infantry Division 34th Division kia Jacob, Claud William GOC Infantry Division 21st Division Wounded Jeffreys, George Darrell GOC Infantry Brigade 58 Bde Wounded Johnston, Alexander Colin GOC Infantry Brigade 126 Bde Wounded Johnston, Francis Earl GOC Infantry Brigade 1 NZ Bde kia Kay, Sir William A.I. Bt. GOC Infantry Brigade 2 Bde Wounded Kay, Sir William A.I. Bt. GOC Infantry Brigade 3 Bde kia Kelly, George Charles GOC Infantry Brigade 2 Bde Wounded Kemp, Geoffrey Chicheley GOC Infantry Brigade 2 Bde Wounded Kenna, Paul Aloysius GOC Mounted Brigade 3 Mtd Bde dow Kennedy, Alfred Alexander GOC Infantry Brigade 230 Bde Wounded Knatchbull, George W.C. GOC Infantry Brigade 38 Bde Wounded Lee, Noel GOC Infantry Brigade 127 Bde dow Lewis, Frederick Gustav GOC Infantry Brigade 166 Bde Wounded Lipsett, Louis James GOC Infantry Division 4th Division kia Lloyd, Frederick Charles GOC Infantry Brigade 158 Bde Wounded Lomax, Samuel Holt GOC Infantry Division 1st Division dow Long, Walter GOC Infantry Brigade 56 Bde kia Longbourne, Francis C.M-M. GOC Infantry Brigade 171 Bde Wounded Longford, Earl of GOC Mounted Brigade 2nd Mtd Bde kia Lowe, Arthur Cecil BGRA 66th Division kia Lowry Cole, Arthur W.G. GOC Infantry Brigade 25 Bde kia Lumsden, Alfred Forbes GOC Infantry Brigade 46 Bde kia Lumsden, Frederick William GOC Infantry Brigade 14 Bde kia Lushington, Stephen BGRA 41st Division Wounded MacBrien, James Howden GOC Infantry Brigade 12 Canadian Bde Wounded Mackenzie, Colin John GOC Infantry Division 61st Division Wounded Maclachlan, Ronald Campbell GOC Infantry Brigade 112 Bde kia Malcolm, Neill GOC Infantry Division 66th Division Wounded Martin, Cuthbert Thomas GOC Infantry Brigade 151 Bde kia Matthews, Godfrey Estcourt GOC Infantry Brigade 198 Bde dow Maude, Frederick Stanley GOC Infantry Brigade 14 Bde Wounded Maxwell, Francis Aylmer GOC Infantry Brigade 27 Bde kia McCulloch, Andrew Jameson GOC Infantry Brigade 64 Bde Wounded McNicoll, Walter Ramsay GOC Infantry Brigade 10 Aus Bde Gassed Mercer, Malcolm Smith GOC Infantry Division 3rd Can Div kia Minshull-Ford, John R.M. GOC Infantry Brigade 115 Bde Wounded Morant, Hubert Horatio Shirley GOC Infantry Brigade 3 Bde Wounded Musgrave, Arthur David BGRA 52nd Division Wounded Napier, Henry Edward GOC Infantry Brigade 88 Bde kia Nickalls, Norman Tom GOC Infantry Brigade 63 Bde kia Northey, Edward GOC Infantry Brigade 15 Bde Wounded Nugent, George Colborne GOC Infantry Brigade 141 Bde kia Odlum, Victor Wentworth GOC Infantry Brigade 11 Can Bde Wounded Oldfield, Leopold Charles Louis BGRA 51st Division Wounded Oldman, Richard Deare Furley GOC Infantry Brigade 15 Bde Wounded Ormsby, Vincent Alexander GOC Infantry Brigade 127 Bde kia Osborn, William Lushington GOC Infantry Brigade 5 Bde Wounded Ouseley, Ralph Glyn BGRA 17th Division Wounded Paris, Archibald GOC Infantry Division 63RN Wounded Paton, John GOC Infantry Brigade 7 Aus Bde Wounded Paynter, George Camborne B. GOC Infantry Brigade 172 Bde Wounded Peake, Malcolm BGRA I Corps kia Pereira, Cecil Edward GOC Infantry Brigade 85 Bde Wounded Philpotts, Louis Murray BGRA 24th Division kia Pollard, James Hawkins Whitshed GOC Infantry Brigade 2 Bde Wounded Potter, Herbert Cecil GOC Infantry Brigade 9 Bde Wounded Pratt, Ernest St George GOC Infantry Brigade 76 Bde Gassed Prescott-Decie, Cecil BGRA 4th Division Wounded Prowse, Charles Bertie GOC Infantry Brigade 11 Bde kia Rawling, Cecil Godfrey GOC Infantry Brigade 62 Bde kia Riddell, Edward Pius Arthur GOC Infantry Brigade 149 Bde Wounded Riddell, James Foster GOC Infantry Brigade 149 Bde kia Ritchie, Archibald Buchanan GOC Infantry Division 11th Division Wounded Rosenthal, Charles GOC Infantry Division 2nd Aus Div Wounded Ruggles-Brise, Harold Goodeve GOC Infantry Brigade 20 Bde Wounded Sackville-West, Hon. Sir C.J. GOC Infantry Brigade 190 Bde Wounded Sackville-West, Hon. Sir C.J. GOC Infantry Brigade 21 Bde Wounded Sanders, Arthur Richard Careless GOC Infantry Brigade 50 Bde kia Scott-Kerr, Robert GOC Infantry Brigade 4 (Guards) Bde Wounded Scott-Moncrieff, William GOC Infantry Brigade 156 Bde kia Sergison-Brooke, Bertram Norman GOC Infantry Brigade 2 (Guards) Bde Gassed Shaw, Frederick Charles GOC Infantry Brigade 9 Bde Wounded Stevenson, Edward Hall BGRA 29th Division Wounded Stewart, Alexander Edward GOC Infantry Bde 2 NZ Bde Wounded Stewart, Alexander Edward GOC Infantry Bde 3 NZ Bde Wounded Stewart, Charles Edward GOC Infantry Brigade 154 Bde kia Stewart, Davison Bruce BGRA 66th Division Wounded Stone, Percy Vere Powys GOC Infantry Brigade 17 Bde Wounded Sweny, William Frederick GOC Infantry Brigade 61 Bde Wounded Taylor, Stuart Campbell GOC Infantry Brigade 93 Bde dow Thesiger, George Handcock GOC Infantry Division 9th Division kia Thorpe, Edward Ivan De S. GOC Infantry Brigade 107 Bde Wounded Tivey, Edwin GOC Infantry Brigade 8 Australian Bde Wounded Trefusis, Hon. John F.H.S.F. GOC Infantry Brigade 20 Bde kia Trevor, Herbert Edward GOC Infantry Brigade 103 Bde Gassed Vincent, Berkeley GOC Infantry Brigade 35 Bde Gassed Walker, Harold Bridgwood GOC Infantry Division 1st Aus Div Wounded Walker, Henry Alexander GOC Infantry Brigade 16 Bde Wounded Walshe, Frederick William Henry BGRA 42nd Division Wounded Webb-Bowen, William Ince GOC Infantry Brigade 8 Bde Wounded White, Hon. Robert GOC Infantry Brigade 184 Bde Wounded Wiggin, Edgar Askin GOC Mounted Brigade 1 Mtd Bde Wounded Williams, Victor Arthur Seymour GOC Infantry Brigade 8 Canadian Bde Wounded Wing, Frederick Drummond Vincent GOC Infantry Division 12th Division kia Wormald, Frank GOC Cavalry Brigade 5 Cavalry Bde kia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 5 July , 2006 Share Posted 5 July , 2006 To buy the book!! http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0850524...ce&n=266239 Amazon quote 4-6 weeks delivery - probably better to go direct to the publishers, Pen & Sword (same price, and likewise free delivery). www.pen-and-sword.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 5 July , 2006 Share Posted 5 July , 2006 You could always go to Tom Morgan Books and buy from him and it puts the money in the coffers of a member of this forum. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 5 July , 2006 Share Posted 5 July , 2006 Its worth a note, that after Loos in Sept 1915, William Robertson CoS to Sir John French was instructed to put out an 'Order' that basically ordered senior officers not to go into the front line. After the loss of Capper, Theiseger, Wing, Nickalls at Loos, French was worried that the losses in senior officers could not be afforded. This did not stop some. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted 5 September , 2006 Share Posted 5 September , 2006 How many German Generals were killed in the war? I suspect far more than the British 200, which is a miniscule amount when one thinks of a million other ranks lost. In WWII, the Germans lost nearly 800 Generals at the front. Does anyone know how many British Generals were killed in action during the Great War? Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 5 September , 2006 Share Posted 5 September , 2006 As a matter of interest, CWGC records the following as died during WW1 of all causes - anywhere.... Field Marshal (3) General (2) Lieutenant General (6) Major General (29) Brigadier General (111) Plus some 14 admirals of various rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 How many German Generals were killed in the war? I suspect far more than the British 200, which is a miniscule amount when one thinks of a million other ranks lost. In WWII, the Germans lost nearly 800 Generals at the front. I had heard that the Germans lost 600 generals in combat in WW II, but I cannot even remember the source, and I am hardly expert on WW II, so I am happy to concede to your figure. In contrast, I understand that two American generals were lost in WW II. I believe that one was a son of Theodore Roosevelt, a brigadier who had a bad heart, but landed at Normandy. (That implies that he died of a heart attack, although I don't know the details.) With a military of about 12 million, it does seem that the Yank generals took good care of themselves. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n cherry Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 Senior Officer Casualties Western Front 1914-1918 Lee, Noel GOC Infantry Brigade 127 Bde dow As a purely techie anorak point for Audax....Noel Lee was wounded at the Third Battle of Krithia 4th June 1915 and died of a result of them at Malta so strictly speaking not a 'Western Front GOC casualty'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KevinEndon Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 As a matter of interest, CWGC records the following as died during WW1 of all causes - anywhere.... Field Marshal (3) General (2) Lieutenant General (6) Major General (29) Brigadier General (111) Plus some 14 admirals of various rank. Had we not lost this many high rankers we may well have lost the war. Taking cover as I hit the enter key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 According to The German Army 1933-45 by Albert Seaston, 63 German generals were killed or died on active service during WWI & 103 more died from other causes. In WWII, 22 were sentenced to death by German courts, 110 committed suicide & another 963 also died or disappeared including execution by the Allies & death in captivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMacdonald Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 Sean, The Book you need is called 'Bloody Red Tabs, General officer Casualties of the Great War' by Frank Davies and the Late Graham Maddocks. It was published by Leo Cooper in 1995. 'this book sets out to destroy the myth that general officers never went near the Front by giving short biographies of two hundred of them who were killed in the war. Forty six of these were killed in 1916. To buy the book!! http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0850524...ce&n=266239 I'm sure it's this book that I read a couple of years ago. If it is, some of the pen portraits contain factual errors. Andy M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Take on me Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 In contrast, I understand that two American generals were lost in WW II. I believe that one was a son of Theodore Roosevelt, a brigadier who had a bad heart, but landed at Normandy. (That implies that he died of a heart attack, although I don't know the details.) With a military of about 12 million, it does seem that the Yank generals took good care of themselves. I think that General Roosevelt was killed in action. Furthermore I think that a living general is probably better than a dead one, oh, and with a military of 12 million there are more than enough people to come between a general and the front. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 I think that General Roosevelt was killed in action. Furthermore I think that a living general is probably better than a dead one, oh, and with a military of 12 million there are more than enough people to come between a general and the front. Jon Jon; I generally agree with you. As the movie General Patton said (did the real one say it?): "The objective is not to die for your country, it is to make the other poor ******* die for his country". However, and even factoring in the air supremacy factor, and the costs of major retreats, there is quite a discrepancy there. Again, no expert on WW II at all, but I remember that a Panzer general in France in 1940 (Guderian? I think a division CO.) was wondering about the armor protection of the French heavy tanks; he issued rifles to his staff, led them on an infantry assault on a French position, captured a French PAK of about 47 mm, turned his staff into a gun crew, and as a French heavy tank crunched up they bounced shell after shell off of it, until he was certain that the German tank guns, then 37 mm or less, could not penetrate a French heavy tank from the front. Then he gave an order and his staff ran for their lives an the tank crunched into the position. Smart? Probably very useful information, but certainly a risky proposition. This might be contrasted with the top French generals in 1940, who I think were holed up in a chateau in the middle of nowhere, and I understand that they had no telephones or telegraph!!! They kept touch with their armies by motorcycle messengers. (Perhaps with written orders typed by 90 year old corporal-clerks.) When the top guy, 78 years old, was felt to not be energetic enough, he was sacked and replaced with a 80 year old. And I don't think that the French allowed their commanders to improvise and even clearly disobey orders if they felt it was necessary. It is the old story of trying to fight the last war. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Take on me Posted 6 September , 2006 Share Posted 6 September , 2006 Bob, To be honest I have always felt sorry for the French in 1940, they had some very intelligent military thinkers (such as de Gaulle), however none of them were in command, combine that with poor moral (memories of 1914-18 persisted) coupled with abysmal tactical doctrine and defeat was almost inevitable. I think the point about fairly poor leadership is also true of the British during the 1940 campaign, although General Alan Brooke was an excellent commander I am not so sure about some of his superiors. Now for the Germans! I think that attitudes to command might be cultural, created through social situations etc. Perhaps it is because there was a greater emphasis on the military in pre WW1 and pre WW2 German society German commanders believed that it was best to take risks and command from the Front, in such circumstances their troops could see their commanders and orders could be issued immediatly. Whereas in the British and American Armies older principles remained in operation, those of keeping behind the lines and making 'the other poor (fool? Sucker?) die for his country!'. So perhaps a difference in 'ethos' among different armies is what we are looking at. What would be interesting would be the years in which German Generals during the First and Second World Wars were killed. If they were all killed during the battles of movement or those of stalemate it might reveal something. Just a few thoughts, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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