Grenatenwerfer Model 1916 - How is it spelled?

[Guest militarywarehouse]

The BATF lists the WWI German Grenatenwerfer Model 1916 as a Curio and Relic firearm. They spell it with an "e" before the "r". Collectors spell it "Granatenwerfer" with an "a" before the "r". Are they the same weapon?

[egbert]

Correct German spelling is "Granatwerfer"

[SiegeGunner]

Hello, and welcome to the Forum. The correct German spelling is 'Granatenwerfer' ('Granate' = shell, bomb, grenade; 'Werfer' = thrower, launcher, projector").

The General Staff (Intelligence), GHQ 'Vocabulary of German Military Terms' (1918), republished by the IWM/Battery Press (1995) defines 'Granatenwerfer' (also abbreviated form 'Granatwerfer') as a 'stick-bomb thrower', but advises that the weapon is known even in English by its German name.

Mick

[Guest militarywarehouse]

Yes, I was wondering if then the BATF list is just a typo or misspelling of the same weapon.

[SiegeGunner]

Yes, I was wondering if then the BATF list is just a typo or misspelling of the same weapon.

Yes, the 'Gren...' spelling is wrong and it is the same weapon.

Mick

[bob lembke]

The BATF lists the WWI German Grenatenwerfer Model 1916 as a Curio and Relic firearm. They spell it with an "e" before the "r". Collectors spell it "Granatenwerfer" with an "a" before the "r". Are they the same weapon?

They are both wrong, I believe. Not surprisingly, the BATF (hardly known as an intellectual ivory tower) has it more wrong than "the collectors" do. The word Granat in German is a shell or grenade, the word Grenat is nothing, at least not in German. Spelling either word "G _ ranatenwerfer" seems to be an effort to make the shell a plural form, not the weapon. The plural of Granatwerfer should be, based on my imperfect German, Granatwerfern. In other words, pluralize the weapon, not the shells. My German is hardly perfect, although I often read it several hours a day, but my opinion above is supported by both a top-line large German-English dictionary, and my specialized German-English military dictionary, first published in 1944 by the US War Department.

I think that the weapon in question is a 76 mm spigot mortar; the standard German mortars, in 76 mm, 17 cm, and 24 cm, were termed Minenwerfer; Minen suggesting a heavy, dumpy, short-range shell.

Bob Lembke

[egbert]

Excuse me Mick,

I speak "some little German", as I am a such a citizen and also I am a member of the forces and are very familiar with all German military terms . I shall know the exact translaton, right?=GRANATWERFER

If you don't trust my knowledge, please have a look in the official German Duden-Lexikon in 8 volumes!!!!which I consulted for double checking.

[egbert]

The plural of Granatwerfer should be, based on my imperfect German, Granatwerfern. In other words, pluralize the weapon, not the shells. My German is hardly perfectBob Lembke

Bob just a clarification : singular is "Der Granatwerfer" and plural is "Die Granatwerfer". Yes, yes the facets of German grammar are as obscure as the British grammar where I am not an expert of.

[bob lembke]

I defer to Mick if he understands that Granatenwerfer is also a correct word for Granatwerfer, as I think that his German is better than mine; I never studied it formally, and only have a rough, contextual grasp of the grammar. My opinion of the BATF as a tower of intellectual achievement stands.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

I doubly defer to Egbert, who certainly has forgotten more German than I ever learned. You all know that I have Flammenwerfer on the brain. I see Flammenwerfer pluralized as Flammenwerfer, but also sometimes as Flammenwerfern, in German texts. Is the latter incorrect, or are Granatenwerfer and Flammenwerfer different cases?

I gather that the toxic German grammar is a result of the Latin (Roman) incursion of long ago. If only Hermann the Two-handed had appeared earlier. German might have done better by adopting Norse grammar. My wife has some Old Norse, I will ask her.

Bob Lembke

[SiegeGunner]

The General Staff (Intelligence), GHQ 'Vocabulary of German Military Terms' (1918), republished by the IWM/Battery Press (1995) defines 'Granatenwerfer' (also abbreviated form 'Granatwerfer') as a 'stick-bomb thrower', but advises that the weapon is known even in English by its German name.

Mick

Egbert,

You posted while I was writing my first post and checking the above source, which, as you see, acknowledges 'Granatwerfer'.

The form 'Granatenwerfer' also exists, and in saying that was the correct spelling, I meant only that that is was the correct spelling of the word mis-spelled as 'Grenatenwerfer'.

We are in agreement and I am not doubting your expertise at all

Mick

[bob lembke]

What is going on here is that I was puzzling trying to put together a useful answer to "militarywarehouse", and as I did Egbert and Mich whipped out quick and accurate answers. When I started on my answer there were no other posts posted; and Mich and Egbert posted useful and accurate responses while I looked in dictionaries and worked on the odd clever turn of phrase.

A little bird has told me that Egbert may feel that I do not trust his grasp of these matters. I assure all that that is certainly not the case, I just did not see his posts, which answered the question well, while I wrote my response.

I can see why my father, in Germany, was required to start his study of Latin in third grade, and I think continue it for about six years.

Bob Lembke

PS: Egbert, at least German has a grammar; arguably, English really does not.

If you really want to have a headache, try Turkish. My wife, who reads nine modern and two ancient European languages very well, and many more poorly, looked at it for two days and switched to Arabic in disgust.

[SiegeGunner]

Update:

http://www.altearmee.de/werfer/index.html

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI..._PCN_BIX_Stores

German manual for Granatenwerfer 16

Mick

[bob lembke]

Thanks, Mick;

Yes, as I suspected, it is a "spigot mortar", and does not actually have a barrel. Design-wise, it is closer to a rifle grenade, or even a rocket, than a conventional barreled mortar.

Bob Lembke

[Max Poilu]

I have only ever come across one spelling and it is with an 'a'. This is the German original for literally the 'grenade-thrower' (launcher). Any spelling with an 'e' is a spelling error as far as I know.

Origin of grenade is explained here (note spelling of the fruit in question.):

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...;hl=pomegranate

Plenty more on the Priest mortar here (pics gone as always...):

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=Granatenwerfer

Clear pic in this topic:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=Granatenwerfer

Giles

[bob lembke]

Giles;

Yes, "Granat" means absolutely nothing in German. A 1200 page + dictionary does not mention the word.

Bob Lembke

[Max Poilu]

Pop an 'e' on the end and it should - grenade. As in "stielhandgranate" etc.

[Cnock]

Hello Egbert,

As You said,

German Trench mortars :

Minenwerfer and Granatwerfer.

Regards,

Cnock

[Max Poilu]

Hi Bob,

To be honest the German language is not my thing (grenades are) but I thought I would have a look in my (1960's 500 page ) German - English dictionary. Granate as far as I have ever known has always been the German for grenade. Perhaps in modern times the English term has been adopted - my interest ends at 1918!

[Correus]

Yes, I know, this is an old thread, yet figured this might help.  It is the manufacturer's plate off of my Granatenwerfer.

[paulowen]

Here's a useful online German dictionary I use quite a lot.

https://dict.leo.org/german-english/grenade

 

It's really only useful for vocabulary, rather than text translations, but very detailed.

Interestingly , smoke grenade translates as 'smoke candle'!

[Correus]

46 minutes ago, paulowen said:

Here's a useful online German dictionary I use quite a lot.

https://dict.leo.org/german-english/grenade

 

It's really only useful for vocabulary, rather than text translations, but very detailed.

Interestingly , smoke grenade translates as 'smoke candle'!

Thank you; I already have that one, and I few others I reference.

I figured that providing a picture of an actual manufacturer's plate would solve the issue.

Neither of the replies here are wrong.  What seems to be being ignored is that the German language has gone through several, official spelling reforms.  The mst notable one of the current era took place in 1996, yet there were definitely others.

I would have to go back into my notes, but I believe the spelling reform that took place shortly after WWI was in 1922.  Prior to that ALL references are spelled 'Granatenwerfer' - manufacturer's plates; patents (I have certified copies of each patent for it - that survided the bomings of WWII - that I got from the German government about 8 years); German military manuals & documents; and etc.  HOWEVER - there are a handful of items, such as period postcards and advertisements (mainly with an Easter them!) that do indeed show the spelling as 'Granatwerfer'.  When I inquired into this, via a doctoral student writing his thesis on WWI German light trench mortars, as well as an historical linguist professor (both at the same university in Germany) they both told be that it was common for words to be shortened in some instances.  Yet they pointed out that the actual, official abbreviation for 'Granatenwerfer' back then was 'Gr.W.'

So, at some point after WWI, during the Weimar Republic, the word 'Granatenwerfer' was officially shortened to 'Granatwerfer'.  That being said, when you come across documents referring to it, that were printed by the Reichswerh in the later half of the Weimar years you will come across the spelling change.

As to dictionaries... I have a US government military dictionary printed in 1919 for use during the occupation.  All it is is a listing of military terms used by the German military - it was used to interpret military documents and inventory lists.  The mortar is most definitely listed as 'Granatenwerfer'.