Royal Engineers Special Brigade

[Chris_B]

Chris

There is no way of telling where the men came from by their number as they were recruited nationwide. The 1915 men all receive their numbers on arrival at Chaham. The men who were subject to compulsory transfer from other regiments and corps were renumbered by RE records.

Thanks for the piece on Cpl Hoare. The specials had a cylinder dump across the road from Cambrin church and cemetery incidentally.

TR

Of course I don't expect a correlation between RE amry numer and a man's home town. That's not what I was asking. Q1. Given a RE army number alone, could you say the man served in a special company? e,g 105xxx or 106xxx does seem to be so, and some in the 120XXX. What other number ranges have you found? Q2. It's doesn't seem you are aware of any survivors from the areas I mentioned.

A minor point about the webiste piece on Hoare says he was prompted to Corporal after one month. I don't believe that's the correct interpretation of his "statement of service". Some entries are crossed out and there is a clear entry "R(?).O 10987 Promoted (Chemist Sect.) Cpl 7.8.15" . His date of joining in London was August 7th 1915. Thanks for the info re: Cambrin.

[Terry_Reeves]

Chris

Your attitude leaves much to be desired - I don't do sarcasm or demands.

TR

[Chris_B]

Chris

Your attitude leaves much to be desired - I don't do demands.

TR

I was meant to be a friendly quesiton, not a demand. Groups of corporals in the Star Medal rolls of the RE with consecutive numbers is one clue. but I was just wondering if you had built up an Army number reference for your own use which might help others who think/suspect an individual may have been a "chemical solider". All I was asking is in your experience does such a correlation exist? I.e given a RE army number can you tell lf the person was likely to have been a chemical solider? As I don't know the nature of the database you have built up over many years for your own use, again I was simply asking if you've recorded men's home towns. I don't do demands either. We seem to have got off on the wrong foot here.

I scanned nearly 900 names in SDGW for those who have any connection with the corner of South London that was once my patch. I have happily given all the data I could find that might be of interest to you. There's even one unexpected case of a retail pharamist who had no other connection with Wimbeldon then working there temporariy at the time he volunteered, his home was in Norwich. He was 209667 Colin Albert Canham his address at the time which is only partailly readable on his burnt papers was 5 South Park Road (verified by other means) . I will continue to keep your thread in mind if I come across any other "Chemical Soldiers".

[Andy Heaton]

Hi All,

I've taken some pics of some more of my Grandfather's things. I'm not sure if the rings were his - so they may or may not relate to activities of the Special Brigade.

To my mind, the most interesting photo is the one of the ticket - I'm sure that it would have been my Grandfather's; incredible really, that such a small and seemingly unimportant item has been kept all these years.

If anyone can give me any information on these items. I'd be delighted to know more about them - 'thank you'.

[Terry_Reeves]

No apparent SB connection there I'm afraid Andy.

TR

[Andy Heaton]

Hi Terry,

Many thanks for such a prompt reply !

I wonder where the ticket has come from ? Could it relate to when he visited France after WW1 ?

[Terry_Reeves]

Andy

Yes, there were quite a number of battlefield tours post-war.

TR

[MarjorieGibbs]

Hi Terry

My father was in Z Company of the Special Brigade. His name was Royden Harry Frost, although he was always known as Roy and that's what's on his discharge paper. He was born in 1895 and was a carpenter by trade. He enlisted as a sapper in November 1915 and his number was 140396. He didn't talk much about the war, mainly because he was more interested in the present and the future than the past, but he did tell me that he trained at Hatfield House.

He was at Dixmude on 26th/27th October 1917 and was awarded the Belgian Croix de Guerre with Palm. I have several copies of a translated letter from the Belgian General in Command, G Maton, Brigade Major, which is addressed to Captain Pelling, Commanding the detachment of the Special Brigade, R.E.:

" Roy Harry Frost, sapper, Special Brigade, R.E., British Army, being with a detachment in charge of Flammenwerfer operations against the Dixmude Minorerie on the night of the 26th/27th October 1917, displayed courage and endurance worthy of praise. Although seriously burned by a projection of oil caused by falling of an enemy projectile close to his apparatus, he continued his task in spite of his sufferings, wishing to successfully conclude the dangerous work with which he had been entrusted."

My dad was given a citation but never received the medal! I have a photocopy of a bound copy of an Advance Copy of the Supplement to The London Gazette dated Thursday 25th July 1918, which I think must have been given to me by the RE Museum, in which someone has written in the margin "insignia presumably presented". I tried appealing to various organisations for help in acquiring the medal, including the Belgian king, but drew a blank. In the end I bought one.

I remember my dad telling me that he was in a gas attack in which his eyes were affected, so he was in hospital recovering from that when the war ended. There are so many questions which I think of now which I would have liked to have asked him.

Sadly, my dad died in a house fire in the home in which he had been born and lived all his life. That was in 1984 and he was 88 years old.

Marjorie Gibbs

[Terry_Reeves]

Marjorie

Many thanks for that, it is much appreciated. It is a shame that no one was prepared to help with the medal.

I have a copy of the war diary entry for the action which was the last time Z Company used the projector. I will post the entry on here later .

TR

[Terry_Reeves]

Marjorie

From Z Company war diary dated 30th October 1917:

"Extract from report by OC detachment of this unit with Belgian Army on the night 26/27 at 2:40 am. Two shots fired from the Large Flame Projector into Minorerie, Dixmude.

Whilst the first shot was being fired the spray from a burst shell in the Yser Canal put the flame out and in consequence the oil poured into the trench and caught alight. Not withstanding this a second shot was successfully made. There was no hostile activity from the Minorerie for a considerable period after the discharge.

Casualties nil"

It does seem strange that your father was not noted as a casualty in the diary.

TR

[MarjorieGibbs]

Terry

Thanks very much for the war diary extract. It is strange that no casualties are listed, but knowing my dad, he wouldn't have made a fuss!

Marjorie

[Terry_Reeves]

Majorie

You are welcome. If you search e bay you will find postcard photographs of the ruins of the Minorerie at a reasonable price.

TR

[MarjorieGibbs]

Terry

Thanks for the suggestion about postcards.

I've also just looked in the war diary and my father is mentioned as being awarded the Croix de Guerre Belge in the entry for November 22nd 1917 - further proof!. Do you know if the Belgian war archives for that period still exist?

Marjorie

[Terry_Reeves]

Marjorie

I suspect that there will be nothing to find. There was a system of reciprocal awards in operation during the war. The UK had an allocation of medals for her allies and vice versa. Normally it was up to the receiving nation to award them to whom they thought deserving.

TR

[MarjorieGibbs]

_Terry

_{The war diary entry for 22/11/1917 says that the award to my father was made in an order of the day of the Belgian army dated 17/11/1917. I just wondered whether that document might exist in an archive somewhere.}

_Marjorie

[Terry_Reeves]

I'm afraid I have no knowledge of that Marjorie although it may be that one of our Belgian members might be able to help. However his award was officially announced here, although it would have been also announced in the London Gazette a few days before but I have not been able to find it>

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13297/page/2753

TR

[MarjorieGibbs]

Hi Terry

Thanks for the link to the Edinburgh Gazette. The text is identical to that in the photocopy which I have of the Advance Copy of the Supplement to The London Gazette dated Thursday 25 July 1918. (I realise now that I was given this photocopy by the MOD, not the RE Museum, and it has handwritten annotations in the margins against each name as to whether the insignia has been presented or forwarded. The quality of the reproduction is quite poor.) I couldn't find this edition, either, when I looked at The London Gazette online. Perhaps the MOD has access to some issues which have not been put online??

Many thanks for your help and interest. My father never wore any of his medals, but he did say that had he known that he would have a daughter, he would have tried to get hold of the missing medal - he was nearly 60 when I was born, so these events were already long beforehand.

Marjorie

[Guest RobPiper]

Hello, as a newcomer I would like to introduce myself as a serving RE officer with an interest in this line of discussion as my Grandfather, Pnr S J Piper 130122 was in the SB. A while ago I produced a poster which I will post after this message. I hope you find it of interest and would like to know if anyone has more information that relates to my Grandfather. Many thanks, Rob

[Guest RobPiper]

[SFayers]

Very interesting Rob - many thanks for sharing.

Kind regards

Steve

[Terry_Reeves]

Rob

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your interesting contribution. I can't add directly to Stanley's story although the incident he was involved in does not appear in 5th battalion's war diary. However, they were busy trying to get the battalion set up and receiving new drafts of officers and men at that time which would explain the paucity of information.

If you have not done so already, you can follow the footsteps of the new arrivals to the depot at Helfaut, up the hill from the railway halt at Wizerns. On the way you pass the chalk pit where revolver practice took place and is now a French army rifle range. The entry to the range is off the road on a short off-shoot on the left-hand side. The site of the Black Cat estaminet which SB men used is further up the hill. The SB Depot HQ was located in Helfaut in the marie and the adjoining school, both of which still stand, although the majority of men were billeted in the surrounding villages.

A number of medically down graded men like Stanley were posted to Porton and received the MOBE, I think in the same edition of the London Gazette, for their work.

TR

[risca_boy]

Hi Terry

Here is a local man who is commemorated on the Pontywaun Grammar memorial in Risca, South Wales. Would you have the War Diary entry for the 22nd Sept 1916 or any other info on him please?

WILLIAM HUGH HARPER
Rank: Serjeant
Regiment: 5th Bn. Special Brigade, Royal Engineers
Age: 21
Date of Death: 22/09/1916
Service No: 113367
Cemetery: VIII. B. 9. Lonsdale Cemetery, Authuile

Born in Southampton in 1895, William Hugh was the son of William Norton and Frances Anne Harper. William senior, born in Ripon, Yorkshire was a secondary school teacher. The family lived firstly in Springfield Villa, Risca and then in 10 York Place in 1911.

At this time William senior was an Assistant School Teacher and a Governor in Pontywaun Grammar School. There were two other sons, James who was also employed as an Assistant School Teacher and Edwin who was a Colliery Clerk. William Hugh was a school boy, later becoming a teacher, probably at Pontywaun Grammar where his father and brother worked..

Aged 19, William enlisted on 18th September 1914, originally into the Welsh Regiment, Service Number 15273 before transferring to the Royal Engineers as part of the Special Brigade.

Thanks

Steve

Edited 27 May , 2016 by SteveV

[risca_boy]

Pontywaun Grammar School memorial for WH Harper

Steve

Edited 27 May , 2016 by SteveV

[Terry_Reeves]

Steve

Thanks for your post and the images.

That part of the war diary is missing unfortunately. The operational records of the brigade do not show a specific operation on that day so it may be that he was killed setting up for another operation, or perhaps accidentally killed. From his number he was one of the original members who joined the special companies in 1915.

TR

[risca_boy]

Thanks Terry

Shame about the war diary but thanks for looking. I've now got his service records and will try and decipher them.

Steve