Royal Engineers Special Brigade

[Terry_Reeves]

HG

I'm afraid no personal details.. I can say he compulsorily transferred from KOYLI in Jan/Feb 1916 when the original companies were expanded into a Brigade size formation. "A" Company belonged to 1st Battalion and their daily doings appear in their war diary WO95/ 121. In March 1917 the companies became responsible for their own administration including their own war diaries, and were redesignated "Special Companies". A Company's war diary is in WO 95/241 from that month.

Would it be alright to download the photo please?

TR

[headgardener]

Would it be alright to download the photo please?

I'll send you a copy of the full image.

[headgardener]

Your inbox is full.....!

[Terry_Reeves]

Your inbox is full.....!

HG

Many thanks. There Is space available now.

TR

[Glengarry1950]

Hi Terry,

I was recently given a copy of the 183 Tunnelling Company War Diaries, my Great Grandfather served from 17th Oct 1915 until 14th January 1918, I gave you his details before on this wonderful thread. I was wondering if you can tell me what L.L.R. is, The write said " L.L.R. were in both cases approx. 70' feet" this is about tunnelling and the other is "We had attachments from 147 A.T. Coy RE" what is A.T. ?

I also thought this quite interesting, " 183 TC 8th Nov 1916 Commenced OP for 4/Field Survey Co, at S.21.C(2.4) : The O.P. is situated up a tree! Two shelters required at foot. Other work normal. It must have been some tree and quite risky considering the great chance of being viewed by enemy snipers, if it was a useful position to us for observation one would assume it was closely observed by the enemy.

Cheers

Hiram

[David_Underdown]

AT = Army Troops, ie the company was controlled by one of the Army HQs (an army in this sense comprised a number of corps, which comprised a number of divisions). They normally worked on things like road improvements behind the lines in the area controlled by that Army HQ.

[Glengarry1950]

Hi David,

Thank you, I thought it might be that but to obvious so discounted it.

Cheers

Hiram

[KeithC]

Hello Terry

I wonder if you are able to provide any further details on my Great Uncle William Pearson Green (brother to my Grandad Harry). He came from a family of Wheelwrights and carpenters.

I cannot find any record of his Attestation or Service Record so assume it was destroyed in the fire, so I do not know where the details of the enlistment place, Ruskington (a village a few miles away) came from. I have found some details on the CWG site about his grave at Vermalles as well as his medal card and roll. His record also says he was formerly 21288 in the Lincs Regiment.

Briefly his details that are generally on display at the Metheringham (Lincolnshire) Roll of Honour are a follows.

Pioneer 128927, 1st Batallion, Special Brigade, Royal Engineers.

Killed in action 28th June 1916, aged 25 years.

Son of Charles William and Annie Green of Metheringham Lincs. Born Metheringham enlisted Ruskington and resident of Metheringham, Lincs.

Commemorated VERMELLES BRITISH CEMETERY IV.A.20.

Any further details, insight, guidance etc that you may give would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

Keith Creasey

[Terry_Reeves]

Keith

Welcome to the forum. I can't help with the specifics I'm afraid, but he was transferred to the SB around January / February 1916. There were three gas operations on the 26th of June: the Hulloch Salient, Blairville and Ficheux and NE of Wulveghem. Your best bet is to look at 1st Battalion's war diary at the National Archives in WO95/121. This will have entries for A,B,C and D companies which might give further information.

TR

[KeithC]

Hello Terry

Thank you for your welcome and prompt reply. I will follow your advice and suggested research.

All the best.

Keith

[petewhitehouse99]

Hi,

I came across this thread while googling for information on the chemical corps. I don't know whether you'll be able to help or not - I've never found either my great-grandfather's service records or even a medal card - so I don't expect you'll be able to add anything. However, you may be interested in these:

Worth noting there's two inaccuracies in the article - his father's name is Christian not Christopher and he was 28 not 38 at the time.

In his obit (in 1981) said "........Mr Thomas was a retired industrial chemist who, as a young man was manager at Holden Vale Bleach works. He later worked abroad for many years. Mr Thomas received his OBE in 1920 for personal bravery in the First World War. As an industrial chemist he had gone to France with the Army and was decorated for his work with poison gases. His citation noted that he was burned and gassed and carried out his duties “without regard for his own life”........."

Any further info or advice on where to look for more would be appreciated.

Pete.

Meant to say - George is seated front left in both.

[David_Underdown]

He seems to have a serjeant's stripes on his arms in the first photo. There are only 5 men named George Thomas in medal index cards who were RE serjeants http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=george&_ln=thomas&_no=&_crp=engineers&_ttl=serjeant&_cr1=WO+372&_dt=M&_col=200&_hb=tna&image1.x=0&image1.y=0

Some fo these might be ruled out on the grounds of other units served, or the fact that they are shown as waterways and railways men within the Royal Engineers, or because they have middle initials that are wrong. (there might be other records which just show initial g - just change george in the url above to g, and any such would be listed (this would include men whose cards records middle initial as G).

[Terry_Reeves]

Pete

Welcome to the forum. His medal index card shows he was 106072 Cpl George Thomas RE. He disembarked in France on 13th July 1915 and was discharged under King's Regulations XXVa Para 392 on the 14 Dec 1918. This particular paragraph means that he was "surplus to military requirements but not having been impaired since entry." Men in this discharge category were often men who had a job to go to that was classed as essential to the country in the immediate post-war period.

He would have joined at the end of June / beginning of July 1915 in answer to a call for men with experience in chemistry to enlist in the wake of the German gas attack in April 1915. He would have ben promoted immediately to Corporal. He would have received very basic military training at with "M' Depot Company at Chatham before being sent to Helfaut some 4 miles south of St Omer, where a depot HQ had been set up in the marie and the adjoining school house , for special company arriving in France. They were billeted in the surrounding villages and carried out their early CW trading on Helfaut Common and revolver training in a nearby quarry. He almost certainly was present at the first British gas attack at Loos on 21 September, 1915 and would have been a member of either 186, 187,188 or 189 Company. In January 1916. the original companies formed the basis of the newly formed Special Brigade which consisted of 5 Battalions, four companies per battalion, numbered A to Q operating gas cylinders and later the Liven's projector. There was no ("I") Company. 5th Battalion was the Special Mortar Company firing the 4 inch Stokes Mortar with with four companies lettered 1-4. In addition to these units , there was also Z Company , formed to operate flame projectors. A 4a Battalion also existed for a short period.

It isn't possible to place him with a company or battalion I'm afraid, unless his name appears in one of the war diaries which are held at the National Archives.

Will it be alright for me to copy the photographs pease? If I can help further, please let me know.

TR

ps. His MIC is online at TNA and Ancestry.

[petewhitehouse99]

Thanks for the help Terry and David. I was never going to find that medal roll card. Ever. On ancestry something like 25 george thomas's in the royal engineers alone come up. Without more info I was never going to be able to identify his. And thanks for the outline of what he probably got up to. You're welcome to use the pictures as you will Terry. Grandma might have one or two more pictures. If she does I'll ask about sticking them on here.

regards,

pete.

[craighasten]

Here's some information on my great-uncle George Spencer Ferguson (113572), eventually a CSM with M Company. I've also posted some photographs of him and some unknown members of the Company to Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/craighasten/sets/72157651567762012/

From what I can read of the scan of his war record on Ancestry.com, he:

Enlisted 2-3 Sept 1914 with Kings Liverpool regiment, 17th Service Battalion (one of the Liverpool Pals Battalions)

Was transferred to Royal Engineers at Chatham, July/Sept 1915.

Corporal (chemist) at RG Depot.

25.9.15 Joined unit from England (OC Depot Spec Coy).

On service dispatched 24.9.15 to 16.2.18. 28.4.17

Appointed to a/sag to complete estab

12.5.17 revert to corporal surplus to estab

11.8.17 appointed to a/sarg

15.12.17 Admitted to hospital 19.12.17 "To Eng ex G Hospl"

8.1.18 Transferred from M Company to Spec Bbgde Depot RE

3.4.18 Transferred to BEF France [from Davenport]

9.4.18 Joined unit 22.6.18 Appointed a/CSM

7.9.18 appointed CSM 22.2.19 to UK 14 days leave

10.5.19 dispatched to UK "Group 41 (Chemist analytical) S." ??

Demobilized June 1919

Campaigns: Expeditionary Force Home 3.9.14 to 19.9.15. Expeditionary Force France 20.9.15

Medals: Order of Leopold 2: London Gazette 20.7.18 [citation letter says for service in the Dixmunde sector]; (Belgian) Croix de Guerre: London Gazette 25.7.18; 1914-15 Star; British War Medal; Victory Medal

[Terry_Reeves]

Here's some information on my great-uncle George Spencer Ferguson (7135792), eventually a CSM with M Company. I've also posted some photographs of him and some unknown members of the Company to Flickr:

Craig

Many thanks for the post and the links to the photos, which are excellent. His RE number was 113572 and he was an original special company soldier. By 1917 he was with "M" Special Coy, not to be confused with "M" (Depot) Company at Chatham. The UK Special Brigade Depot was a established at Withnoe, which is a couple of miles away across the water from Devenport. It is the name of an area rather than that of a village or town and was a hutted camp. If you go to google maps and type in "Withnoe Lane, Devon" it will take you to the area. There was another depot in France, at Helfaut, some 4 miles south of St Omer.

M Special Company has a war diary at TNA in WO95/252 covering March 1917 - July 1919. They were part of 3rd Battalion Special Brigade and their activities from Feb 1916-Feb 1917 are incorporated in the battalion diary in WO95/121.

Is there a chance of getting copies of the photographs please? They would be be for private use only.

TR

[craighasten]

Terry, many thanks for the information. If you can email me your address I will send the larger version of the photograph files to you on a CDRom. (I've also just loaded a second album of photos from GSF's collection, though I think these relate to his initial training with the Kings Liverpool Regiment before his transfer to the Royal Engineers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/craighasten/sets/72157651603605275/)

[Terry_Reeves]

Terry, many thanks for the information. If you can email me your address to craighasten@gmail.com I will send the larger version of the photograph files to you on a CDRom. (I've also just loaded a second album of photos from GSF's collection, though I think these relate to his initial training with the Kings Liverpool Regiment before his transfer to the Royal Engineers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/craighasten/sets/72157651603605275/)

Craig

Many thanks, you might want to remove your e mail address now.

TR

[Guest FionaMaryandAlf]

Hi Terry and everyone. I have just started trying to find out a bit about my grandad. He was Stanley George Thomas McGowan. He died in March 1939 when my mum was only 3, and most family documents were destroyed in the blitz, so all we knew was that he was gassed and eventually his lungs rotted away - according to the doctor anyway, and that at some point he was in Reims. Oh and that he lied about his age. His service record says he signed on at Woolwich on 17 March 1915 and eventually left the army on 16 March 1927. He was from Plumstead but his Army Form B discharge paper says he signed up in Glasgow. He was in France from 12 July 1915 until 15 June 1919. I now have his service record from the MOD as its not in the public domain as it is less than 100 years since he left. I do have a photo I'll post very soon. I think I need to look at war diary WO95/241 and WO95/121 and I can see there are some books to read. But if anyone can help me with any battles he would have been in, where he was wounded or anything else at all I would be very grateful. Terry would you like a copy of the service record too? Fiona.

A few more details are as below:

DOB. 24/4/1898.

Enlisted. 17/3/1915

Various numbers. 94795. 192664. 1854123

Variously in 35th battalion, 17th, 78th, Horse Transport, 121 battery, 5th divisional ammunition column and then transferred as a pioneer to 1st battalion special brigade on 19th July 1916. Then to RE G Company Chapperton Down on 6/9/1919.

Wounded on 21/4/17 (C1189/73610). Again on 5/10/17 (B Company No 30 reports wounded remains at duty. C1350/11410/17). Then again 4/10/88 (C17181/55957).

[Terry_Reeves]

FM&A

The war diaries will give you the information you need about B Company's day to day doings and the operations they were involved in. By coincidence, I happen to have a Military Medal to a B Company NCO.

About a thousand gunners and drivers were transferred to the Special Brigade in 1916 which officially came into being on 17th February that year. His Chapperton Down RE post-war posting is interesting as it was part of the Porton Down Experimental Station (Chemical Warfare) for which the RE provided troops from 1916 and post-war. It was later called 58 (Porton ) Company.

I would love a copy of his service record, it might be that there is some information that I can add as a result. I will send you a message with my e mail adress.

TR

[Tom W.]

Currently for Sale on Ebay, is a photograph relating to the Special Brigade.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Special-Brigade-Royal-Engineers-Gas-Chemical-Warfare-Unit-WW1-Postcard-R-10-69-/121547810992?pt=UK_Collectables_Postcards_MJ&hash=item1c4cd068b0

Message on back says: 'To Miss M. Page With kindest regards from G McCulloch Spec. Brigade R.E.'

(I must clarify, that I am not involved in this sale).

I bought it. The seller said, "Possibly a rare card."

Yes.

Smack dab in the middle of the group is Lieutenant William Howard Livens, wearing an enlisted man's jacket.

This is only the third image I've seen of Livens. A distinguishing characteristic of his face was that in his left eye, much more of the "white" could be seen under the iris than in the right eye, giving the left eye a somewhat glaring appearance. It's clearly present in the photo.

One of my prize possessions now.

[Terry_Reeves]

Tom

Sorry to have to disappoint you but it isn't WH Livens for the following reasons:

1. Livens never served in the ranks. He was subaltern with a signal company for a while before joining the Special Brigade. In his application for a commission (Personal file at TNA) he states that he had bought a a motor cycle specifically with the intent of a gaining a commission in the Signal Service.

2. The picture is almost certainly taken on the beach at Whitsand Bay close the Special Brigade home depot at Withnoe in Devon. The depot did not open until 1916 by which time Livens was already in France. The "gor blimey" hats introduced introduced in March 1916 also help to place the picture as 1916 or later.. In 1917 WH Foulkes had him transferred to the Ministry of Muntions for reasons that have never really been explained. He remained there until the end of the war and left as a Major.

3. Don't be mislead by the moustache and the eyes, If you look carefully at the photographs of Livens you will see that it is clearly a different man.

TR

[Tom W.]

Tom

Sorry to have to disappoint you but it isn't WH Livens for the following reasons:

1. Livens never served in the ranks. He was subaltern with a signal company for a while before joining the Special Brigade. In his application for a commission (Personal file at TNA) he states that he had bought a a motor cycle specifically with the intent of a gaining a commission in the Signal Service.

2. The picture is almost certainly taken on the beach at Whitsand Bay close the Special Brigade home depot at Withnoe in Devon. The depot did not open until 1916 by which time Livens was already in France. The "gor blimey" hats introduced introduced in March 1916 also help to place the picture as 1916 or later.. In 1917 WH Foulkes had him transferred to the Ministry of Muntions for reasons that have never really been explained. He remained there until the end of the war and left as a Major.

3. Don't be mislead by the moustache and the eyes, If you look carefully at the photographs of Livens you will see that it is clearly a different man.

TR

Yes, he never served in the ranks, but the photo shows several OFFICERS wearing enlisted jackets with no rank badges, a practice they adopted for combat operations. There are several men with walking sticks and no visible rank insignia, while the others are all clearly corporals. Livens is in the center, where you would expect the leader of the group to be.

We don't know where the photo was taken. There's no indication. The Depot Special Engineers was established in January of 1916, when the Special Brigade was formed. Livens didn't arrive in France until June 24, 1916. From December of 1915 until May of 1916, he was in Britain, building flamethrowers and training the Special Sections how to use them. He left Britain by ship on June 21, 1916.

I looked carefully at the photos of Livens. The ears and the left eye are the giveaway.

[paultaylor85]

Paul

Thanks for that. John Barfield was one of around 1000 gunners transferred to the Special Brigade in early 1916. "A" Company, part of 1st Bn, has a war diary which can been seen at the National Archives in WO95/241. and will give you the day to day activities of the company.

Many thanks for the photograph.

TR

Thanks so much for your kind help Terry and apologies for not having acknowledged your reply sooner. I really appreciate the lead you've given me and will follow it up as soon as I can.

Best wishes and thanks again,

Paul

[paultaylor85]

In case it might be of interest to you...... The doorway framing your great-uncle Jack was quite a popular location for portrait photos like this. It's a side door to one of the cathedrals on the western front - I *think* it's Arras.

That's very kind of you headgardener! I always wondered where it was so even having your thoughts is of great help. One day I'll get there and make comparisons (assuming it's as it was).

Much appreciate your post.

Best wishes,

Paul