Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Following on from the recent thread about real or re-strike cap badges, I thought I would post a few images of WW1 period cap badges and make some comments on each. Below is a badge of the Hampshire Regiment. This particular badge was worn by one of my great-uncles from 1917 to 1918. The front has surface erosion on the high points from 'bulling' note the leaf detail on the laurel. The back has dirt pits whilst the slider shows usage and wear and has been bent to stop it falling out of the cap. Out of interest my great-uncle was buried wearing his cap by a bomb explosion, which killed a certain Pte George Bradbury who came from Buckinghamshire - any relation Lee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Below is an officer's Tank Corps badge, which was worn by one of my neighbours (when I was a kid), who served at Cambrai with the 9th Bn Tank Corps. The badge has a coating to prevent reflections and the need to clean it!. The back has a very thin slider, again bent to retain it in the cap. Thin sliders like this are common on badges manufactured mid 1917 onwards possibly as a need to conserve brass for munitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Finally one for the Canadian Pals. This was given to a great-aunt of my wife who worked with the Canadian Forestry Corps in Hampshire during WW1. The two loop attachment on the back shows wear and the usual dirt pitting. The front has the surface erosion on the high points. Note that none has any brasso residue, a sure sign that what you have is a re-strike! Hope you all found these examples interesting. Cheers - Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Cheers, Ian, ta very much! Keep it up. But surely somebody could have "brassoed" a badge after the war. Several of my Canadian badges have residue, but I can hardly imagine they are re-strikes . . . Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Ian I am not a collector but thanks a lot for the CFC badge. The local black man John Benjamin French who will have a new headstone in Cove Haven Cemetery Lexington, Kentucky next week was in that unit. I wish I could post a picture, I have one in my computer of the old one which is real bad, almost the whole foundation is above ground. I asked Ottawa to change the words too, we will see if they did. People who see this, and they will be few, will not realize he was a soldier if all it says is Canadian Forestry Corps CEF. Not one person who sees it will know CEF from their big toe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Ian, Could you spell out how brasso is diagnostic of restrike ........ sorry to be thick, but I collected a complete set of 1914-18 Line Infantry regular battalion shoulder titles in my youth some 40 years ago and cannot imagine that they are restrikes [not that I care much]. But brasso, yes, not-too carefully bulled by me over the years [not the Rifles titles, of course]. They cost an average of 75p each, as I recall. Puzzled of Baston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Fisher Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Ah, LB, restrike shoulder titles? I don't know of any. They're creeping up in price now, but I'd suggest the dies are long since gone so no restrikes. Ian has shown the kind of stuff I'd buy - tired, worn, grubby and absolutely right. But I'd take issue with the brasso - the lying cheating 'genuine rare capbadge' restrike merchants are also lazy and use machines to polish their hundreds of ripoffs. There was a company producing some extremely good restrikes only a quarter mile from my house. I am of the impression that the business was failing and producing restrikes was a desperate way of trying to raise some cash. I hope they lost their homes. If a restrike is sold as such, openly and at a realistic price, then I don't have a problem with people buying them to fill a gap in their collection, but to pass off last year's tat as something old and reasonably valuable is fraud. Real badges have seen some history. Restrikes have merely seen you coming. Caveat emptor, my friends.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Ah, LB, restrike shoulder titles? I don't know of any. They're creeping up in price now, but I'd suggest the dies are long since gone so no restrikes. Re-strikes of shoulder titles for the Manchester Pals battalions (1st - 8th City) are being encountered a lot more frequently than they used to be. Luckily, their quality is rather poor as I think that someone has remade the dies from an original badge, rather than using an original die. I can't comment on other units, but I'd presume that the case is the same for other "rarer" titles. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 ...and to follow on from the other thread about E.Lancs badges, here is a selection of "flip sides" of various E.Lancs badges just to illustrate points made by myself,Ian and others... (PS one of them is a (to me, who has held it, pretty obvious)re-strike, the others are all original (guarenteed!)) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Fisher Posted 10 October , 2003 Share Posted 10 October , 2003 Dave - is there a prize? Is it top right? Can I have 'middle middle' please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Dave - is there a prize? Is it top right? Can I have 'middle middle' please? Graeme. No there's no prize (I meant to mention where the re-strike was in the original post, but forgot! ). Yes, it's the top right (one of the more obvious re-strikes - though it looks pretty good in a display). It's also slightly lighter than the others and bends easier. I've tried to pick a few re-strikes up in the past on purpose, just for information.A case of "know your enemy", I think. This was one of the "not bad" in quality ones. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Dave, as per email and now looking at the picture (terrific) my East Lancs looks the same as the middle top. (From the back, of course ) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Peter. This is that same badge from the front ("A" side ? ). This particular one was one of those (3 in my possession) issued to my father in the 1950's. It's identical to any of those issued between circa. 1910 and 1956(ish) (King's Crown badges continued to be issued for a while after QEII came to the throne, along with the newly crowned badges such as middle left on the photo). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Dave, It is the same except on yours at the scroll bit on LH side next to the word East there appears to be a crossed line which mine does not have. Thats the only difference that I can see as the colouring, rose, etc are the same Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Dave, It is the same except on yours at the scroll bit on LH side next to the word East there appears to be a crossed line which mine does not have. Thats the only difference that I can see as the colouring, rose, etc are the same Peter Peter. Looking at the actual badge it's not as obvious as on the scan. I think it's the light of the scanner picking something up more than anything. It's simply a little bit of wear on the "pebbling" of the scroll. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Let me qualify the 'Brasso Issue'. When selling cap badges that are re-strikes, dealers will either sell them as such or claim no knowledge or sell them as originals. To do the latter they need to be 'doctored'. One way is to smear them with brasso using a pastry brush, which has always been found to apply just the right amount. In answer to Peter's question about brassoing badges after the war, anything done in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s or 1950s would now be given over to verdigris or being slightly dark in colour as this ages as well. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Ian I am not a collector but thanks a lot for the CFC badge. The local black man John Benjamin French who will have a new headstone in Cove Haven Cemetery Lexington, Kentucky next week was in that unit. I wish I could post a picture, I have one in my computer of the old one which is real bad, almost the whole foundation is above ground. I asked Ottawa to change the words too, we will see if they did. People who see this, and they will be few, will not realize he was a soldier if all it says is Canadian Forestry Corps CEF. Not one person who sees it will know CEF from their big toe. Paul - Glad to be of help. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Underwood Posted 11 October , 2003 Share Posted 11 October , 2003 Are badges stamped with the maker 'J.Gaunt' on the rear guarrenteed to be originals, or do restrikes also carry makers names? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 October , 2003 Share Posted 12 October , 2003 Definately not guarenteed original, Ian. I've come across many re-strikes with this stamping. Gaunt,themselves, have also re-struck badges. Check whether it's "London" or "B'ham" stamped. Most of my (OR's) badges don't carry any maker's name at all. Later manufactures do, though. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 12 October , 2003 Share Posted 12 October , 2003 Absolutely agree with Dave on this. What we need to do is qualify the term 'Re-Strike' as it appears to cause a bit of confusion. 'Re-Strike' cap badges is a term usually given to badges that are struck from the same dies used to manufacture period badges. In other words the detail is correct but the badge will not have that aged or worn look. In addition depending on the grade of brass used, quality can vary. 'Modern Strike' cap badges is a term usually given to badges that are struck from modern tooling or dies. Here the quality depends on the accuracy of the tooling as well as the quality of the metal etc. The ones that I have seen for example vary from really very good to totally poor. 'Fakes' or 'Wrong-uns' is usually associated with badges having a design or colour fault eg in terms of design a WW1 Tank Corps badge with lugs and not a slider (This badge was NEVER made with lugs). In terms of colour eg a bi-metal badge made in a single metal colour such as the Motor MGC. There is nothing wrong with any of the above in my book, provided they are labelled and sold correctly. For eg there is a dealer in Colchester who sells modern-re-strikes at £5 a piece - these are labelled as such and sold at what I think is a realistic price. In the case of some badges which were not produced in quantity such as the 7th Bn Hampshire Regt, it moght be the only way of owning one. What is wrong is when individuals be they dealers or collectors turned traders 'doctor' badges to pass them off as an original strike. 'Brassoing', 'Gardening' and 'Firing' are three such methods used. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 12 October , 2003 Share Posted 12 October , 2003 'Brassoing', 'Gardening' and 'Firing' are three such methods used. So now you tease us with these terms. Does gardening mean a little burial in the carrot patch so the badge will look grimy? Does firing mean a little pyrotechnics with a propane torch to bend or colour the metal of the badge? Peter (his imagination now running wild . . . ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 12 October , 2003 Share Posted 12 October , 2003 Some soil is acidic and hot coal ash can give that old dirt pitting look. Here endeth the lesson Next week how to age an M16 Helmet liner Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 12 October , 2003 Share Posted 12 October , 2003 I was concerned that MGC badges are frequently copies having recently bought one - but then it occured to me that paying a couple of quid for one probably means its genuine. The badge certainly seems kosher. Can IanB or any other MGC expert tell me exactly what badge it is ? The guns each measure almost exactly 40mm in length. It has 3 circular rear mounting points , on the crown and each gun butt. Stamped Gaunt London. Having read about "ridiculous prices" for MGC stuff, can I now sell it and retire !? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 12 October , 2003 Share Posted 12 October , 2003 Ian, Two ways to look at this......... A couple of quid for any cap badge is a good deal, whether it is modern, a re-strike or period! I would like to see a picture before saying if it is contemporary, but from what has been described, it sounds like a later strike made by Gaunt. I have seen these 3 loop suspensions on period badges, particularly RND MGC badges. However, overall, a good buy. Ian B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 October , 2003 Share Posted 12 October , 2003 In terms of colour eg a bi-metal badge made in a single metal colour such as the Motor MGC. ...but it must be bourne in mind that some Bi-metal badges were also made in single metal colours (such as the all brass single stamped E.Lancs badge illustrated below). These were the "war economy" badges of 1916. Many of these have also been copied extensively (I've just bought a pair of all brass EL copies from eBay - on purpose,I must add). Others can be found in a solid piece whereas the usual badge has "cut outs", such as the RE "war economy" badge. This can look like a "bad" stamping, whereas it was actually intentional. Another variation can be found in the "plastic" bakerlite badges.These were the WW2 "war economy" badges and can be found in a range of colours (I've seen black ,grey and a sandy colour to the East Lancs). I can't recall seeing any copies of this type. Sorry to add more "mines" to the ever growing "minefield" out there! Dave. PS, Ian(w). Could your badge be an officers version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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