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clive_hughes

SOME WELSH SOURCES

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lj2907

Hi LST_164,

Found your kind offer and wondered if you could help.....

In the course of family history research I have come across details for someone who I think is one of "mine" but unfortunately none of the sources I have seen give any clue to his age or family connections to confirm this - I wondered whether your sources for the 14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers could add anything??

The man in question is Private Edward Owen Jones, 20163, 14th Bn. RWF.

He was killed in action on 5th June 1916 according to the CWGC, "Soldiers Died" and his medal index card. He has no known grave and is recorded on the Loos Memorial.

I know from Soldiers Died that he was born and lived in Llandudno - which fits with my man - and, according to the local council website, that he appears on the Llandudno Roll of Honour.

His medal card gives his "Date of Entry" (into Theatre of War) as 2 Dec 1915 - so I assume he should appear on the embarkation roll for the 14th Bn.

Could you possibly tell me whether he does appear? I am hoping that any address given in the roll might tie in with known ones for the family.

And also, if possible, whether the Battalion war diary mentions anything of the action he may have been involved in on the 5th June 1916 which led to his death?

Thanks very much,

Lara

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clive_hughes

Hi Lara,

yes, he is on the 1 December 1915 Embarkation Roll as 20163 Pte Jones, E.C. (sic), address 24 Kings Road, Llandudno, with the comment "killed in action". They would have landed the next day in France, hence the day's difference in dates with the Medal Card.

The 14th RWF Diary synopsis states that they were attached to the 1st Brigade, Guards Division for instruction in the trenches at Laventie from 18 to 26 December. They then moved to the Richebourg front and went into the trenches on 6 January 1916, moving to the Givenchy front on 21 Feb. They were moved again on 20 April to take over trenches in the Moated Grange sector, then Laventie on 1 May. Nothing is recorded in the way of attacks etc., just that up to 9 April their casualties in the routine of "trench warfare" in moderately "quiet" sectors had cost them 27 dead (including from disease etc.) and 73 invalided to the UK with wounds or sickness.

They were in turn relieved by the 14th Welsh Regt. on 17 May, going into billets at La Gorgue. On 25 May the battalion relieved the 11th S.Wales Borderers in the Moated Grange sector trenches. Then on 4 June is a note that the late Capt. H.P.Willliams and 60 others attacked enemy trenches, with the loss of 3 officers and 31 other Ranks. The battalion was relieved by the 13th RWF on 8 June.

The 38th Div. history just condenses this by saying that the Division took over the Neuve Chapelle sector in January under XI Corps, and at different times between then and early June stayed "in the line" holding every portion of the Front between Picantin in the north and Givenchy in the south.

The Regimental Records of the RWF Vol. IV p.177 refers to the Raid on the Moated Grange trenches on 4 June. After an artillery bombardment, the raiding party penetrated the enemy wire and entered the trench only to find that the enemy had retired to the support line. In the frantic ten minutes which their schedule seemingly allowed, they threw mills bombs down some dugouts to cause damage and tried to engage the Germans in the support line. The withdrawal proved the most difficult part, in the course of which Capt. Williams and two men were killed, Lieuts. A.Lloyd Jones and J.Glynn Jones and 24 men wounded, and five men were missing. The Embarkation Roll refers to Capt. Williams being kia at the "Pont Duhem raid".

It would seem possible that unless further casualties were suffered on 5 June from snipers, shelling or other retaliatory enemy action, that your relative was one of the Raid's losses, either as one of the two killed or five missing. I cannot determine if the Raid was the usual night-time venture, but if so then casualties would be formally reported in the morning (5 June) and may have been recorded under that date.

If you wished to check the unit War Diary itself, this can be seen at the National Archives Kew or purchased in 1-monthly blocks online for about £8.50. Another copy will be at the Regimental Museum in Caernarfon Castle, and yet another (with other Battalion material) in the University College Bangor Archives.

You have already consulted the main casualty sources and the Llandudno memorials site. I would suggest you also consult local newspapers for Llandudno for this period, as there may be an obituary or even extracts from letters by fellow soldiers referring to his death. As a local man his family should have received one of the "Llandudno Memorial Plaques" after the War. There are some originals of these at the Gwynedd County Records Office in Caernarfon, and smaller specimen copies were also produced (I know one is held at the North Wales Museum in Bangor).

I would like to say that his name is also on the North Wales Heroes' Memorial Arch in Bangor, but the online photos of the Llandudno panels are incomplete and most of the Jones surnames can't be seen.

Hope this helps,

LST_164

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lj2907

Hello LST-164

Thank you so much for that information. The address is not one that I immediately recognise but gives me something else to look into in my quest to find out if this is "my" chap.

And the diary extracts which you cite are fascinating. I think that if he indeed died in this raid rather than through some other cause the following day then he must have been one of the two men killed in the withdrawal with Captain Williams. If he was one of the five missing then surely he would not have posted as KIA? Unless the fact that he had actually died was confirmed relatively quickly I suppose.

The reason that you give for the date of death being slightly at odds with the date of the raid seems entirely plausible to me.

I think that my next port of call will be the local papers as you suggest. The seem to have been fairly good at giving information about the fate of "local boys".

I hope to get down to that area of Wales in the near future as I have another document that I would like to look at in the Bangor University collections - I shall add the war diary and the newspapers to my "to do" list.

Nobody in the family seems to know anything about Edward - which seems very sad. If he is "our" Edward Owen Jones I would like to put him back in his rightful place. And if he's not - then perhaps someone else may have the advantage of anything I find out at some point in the future!

Once again, thank you very much for your help.

Lara

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clive_hughes

Lara,

you're welcome!

As regards being killed/missing - for obvious reasons in the wake of any action the fate of participants wasn't always clear. On calling the roll afterwards (or in the morning) the identity of those who returned wounded or unscathed would be fairly easy (but not conclusive - men separated from their unit or stranded in No Mans Land could take days to rejoin). If any men were brought in dead or subsequently died of wounds that would also be fairly straightforward, and they had a good chance of being properly buried in a marked grave.

Others would be literally missing. Survivors would be asked if they had any knowledge of their fate, which in the casualty lists results in such descriptions as "wounded and missing" if they were seen to be hit but didn't make it back. Those seen to have been killed were also obviously kia. The others would remain officially missing unless and until their status was established - either an identifiable body would sooner or later be recovered, or he would be listed by the Germans as a prisoner of war (wounded or unwounded). For many men, however, no trace was ever found of them and eventually their death in action would be officially presumed, and marked in "Soldiers Died" or service records as kia, or missing believed kia. Left in the open or buried in unmarked graves, they quickly became anonymous corpses. These sort of casualties form the bulk of the many tens of thousands of names on the Loos, Thiepval, Menin Gate and other Memorials.

A formal grave at the time of death is also no guarantee against appearing on such a Memorial, as in the ebb and flow of later fighting and the constant heavy shelling, grave markers were easily destroyed and indeed the graves and their contents completely obliterated. If casualties' graves could not be located after the War, the great Memorials took the place of a headstone in enabling them to be commemorated.

So Edward Jones could well be one of the five missing, if no trace or news of him was ever found, or if no identifiable grave was located after 1918. You could look into this if someone on the Forum with access to "Soldiers Died" can list the numbers of 14th RWF men ultimately shown as killed or died of wounds on 4th & 5th June 1916. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission (or Geoff501's "Hut Six" website) can also be interrogated on this point regarding the number of 14th RWF graves and Loos Memorial entries for those two days.

LST_164

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lj2907

LST_164

Thanks for those new ideas. I have followed up on them and done a search for 14th Battalion men as you suggested. In case anybody else is interested - combining info from CWGC and Soldiers Died the result was as follows.....

4th Jun 1916 -

[no casualties listed for the 14th Bn. - which supports your idea that this might have been a night attack on the 4th with casualty reporting carried out the following morning]

5th Jun 1916 -

Pvt. Thomas BITHELL 20852, age 28, KIA, Rue de Bacquerot No. 1 Military Cemetery, Laventie

Pvt. John COTTRELL 21256, age unk, KIA, Wicres Churchyard

Pvt. William Herbert HATT 34608, age 31, KIA, Loos Memorial

Pvt. Andrew HAYWARD 20783, age 19, KIA, Wicres Churchyard

Pvt. John HOURIHAN 34613, age unk, KIA, Loos Memorial

Pvt. Edward Owen JONES 20163, age unk, KIA, Loos Memorial

Pvt. Thomas [Edward] JONES 20378, age 28, D of W, Merville Communal Cemetery

Pvt. Charles POCOCK 20876, age unk, KIA, Rue de Bacquerot No. 1 Military Cemetery, Laventie

Pvt. John Edward SERVANT 27803, age 24, D of W, Merville Communal Cemetery

Capt. Hugh Powell WILLIAMS, age 33, KIA, Wicres Churchyard

I also continued on to the end of the month of June 1916 to see if anyone else from the 14th Bn. may have died in the aftermath of this action. The only casualties listed for the remainder of the month were as follows...

7th Jun 1916

Pvt. Noah Llewellyn PERKINS 33170, age 26, D of W, Calais Southern Cemetery

19th Jun 1916

Pvt. Hughie Parry GRIFFITHS 20752, age 21, D of W, Longuenesse (St Omer) Souvenir Cemetery

23rd Jun 1916

Pvt. Evan Griffith OWEN 20738, age unk, D of W, Aubigny Communal Cemetery Extension

29th Jun 1916

Pvt. [L.] Henry STEWART 34564, age unk, D of W, Marden St Michael Churchyard

I expect that at least some of these later deaths resulted from wounds received in the action of the 4th/5th June.

Of the casualties recorded at the time it seems interesting that 3 men, including Captain H P Williams, are buried at Wicres Churchyard. It would make a lot of sense if the two men with him are the two mentioned as being KIA with him in the diaries.

If the two who are listed as D of W on 5th June are discounted then that leaves 5 men - which would fit perfectly with the number listed as missing in the diaries. Of these, 2 have graves adjacent to each other in the Rue de Bacquerot No. 1 Military Cemetery, Laventie. The other 3 including my man are recorded on the Loos Memorial.

So I now think that Edward Owen Jones was one of the missing 5.

Very interesting exercise! Thanks for the idea!

Lara

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pgarwood

rICHARDS

Having had sterling service from various pals since recently joining the Forum, I decided to offer look-ups if desired from any of the following works (in original or copy format) of Welsh interest in my possession:

<i>Who's Who In Wales</i>, pub. Western Mail, Cardiff 1921. Has 551 pages of biographies of persons living at that time and connected with Wales. The compilers included a question about War service, so WW1 activities of civilians are often noted, as well as those of servicemen.

<i>Absent Voters List,</i> Parliamentary County of Carmarthen, 3rd edition (?1919). My copy may not be complete, but still substantial. As usual, it is in order of districts, parishes, streets etc. so an indication of where to look would be appreciated!

<i>14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers</i> - Nominal Roll of all ranks who embarked with the battalion for France on 1 December 1915, plus home addresses. ORs in regt. number order (c.20,000 onwards). Fatalities are noted. Additional list of all officers who subsequently served with the bn.; Honours & Awards, corrections & additions.

<i>14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers</i> - copy booklet which gives a brief digest or synopsis of the unit's War Diary or notes of activities between 21 November 1914 and 31 May 1919.

<i>1-6th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers (TF)</i> - Statement of Casualties reported to the Carnarvonshire and Anglesey TF Association up to 31 October 1915. This lists the bn.'s Gallipoli casualties, with nature of wound/injury/ailment, home address, and date of casualty.

<i>Talar Gwroldeb - Nodion Cof Cewri Fy Ardal</i> - volume by David Jones, pub. by J.T.Williams, Amlwch 1920. Mainly lists those from Amlwch town and surrounding parishes in Northeast Anglesey who died as a result of the War, but includes some who became POWs, were decorated, etc. Most have photos and a biography. Text mostly in Welsh (don't worry - I can translate!), with bits of home-made poetry and a specially composed "Memorial" hymn by the author. A scarce volume.

<i>Cofeb Y Dewrion / Heroes Memorial 1914-1918</i> - by Rev. W.J.Owen, Bangor(nd). As with the above, but a larger volume chronicling fatalities from the city of Bangor, Carnarvonshire. In separate Welsh and English sections, according to the background of the deceased. Bits of verse added by the poetical author. Most have photos also.

My main long-term project is a list of WW1 fatalities connected with Anglesey, so again if anyone wants to know about these, just ask.

I may be able to add to these sources as I go on, but in the meantime they're on offer.

LST_164

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pgarwood

Hello,

Thanks for your kind offer.

Absent Voters List:

Would you have anything on Vincent Richards of Arwel, LLandilo Road, LLandebie Carm. Was 61014 Mon Reg and later 30189 KSLI?

Whos Who : Sir Joseph Alfred Bradney and John David Griffith Davies?

RWF William Charles Fenton DAVIES 80670 ??

Thanks

Peter

Having had sterling service from various pals since recently joining the Forum, I decided to offer look-ups if desired from any of the following works (in original or copy format) of Welsh interest in my possession:

<i>Who's Who In Wales</i>, pub. Western Mail, Cardiff 1921. Has 551 pages of biographies of persons living at that time and connected with Wales. The compilers included a question about War service, so WW1 activities of civilians are often noted, as well as those of servicemen.

<i>Absent Voters List,</i> Parliamentary County of Carmarthen, 3rd edition (?1919). My copy may not be complete, but still substantial. As usual, it is in order of districts, parishes, streets etc. so an indication of where to look would be appreciated!

<i>14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers</i> - Nominal Roll of all ranks who embarked with the battalion for France on 1 December 1915, plus home addresses. ORs in regt. number order (c.20,000 onwards). Fatalities are noted. Additional list of all officers who subsequently served with the bn.; Honours & Awards, corrections & additions.

<i>14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers</i> - copy booklet which gives a brief digest or synopsis of the unit's War Diary or notes of activities between 21 November 1914 and 31 May 1919.

<i>1-6th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers (TF)</i> - Statement of Casualties reported to the Carnarvonshire and Anglesey TF Association up to 31 October 1915. This lists the bn.'s Gallipoli casualties, with nature of wound/injury/ailment, home address, and date of casualty.

<i>Talar Gwroldeb - Nodion Cof Cewri Fy Ardal</i> - volume by David Jones, pub. by J.T.Williams, Amlwch 1920. Mainly lists those from Amlwch town and surrounding parishes in Northeast Anglesey who died as a result of the War, but includes some who became POWs, were decorated, etc. Most have photos and a biography. Text mostly in Welsh (don't worry - I can translate!), with bits of home-made poetry and a specially composed "Memorial" hymn by the author. A scarce volume.

<i>Cofeb Y Dewrion / Heroes Memorial 1914-1918</i> - by Rev. W.J.Owen, Bangor(nd). As with the above, but a larger volume chronicling fatalities from the city of Bangor, Carnarvonshire. In separate Welsh and English sections, according to the background of the deceased. Bits of verse added by the poetical author. Most have photos also.

My main long-term project is a list of WW1 fatalities connected with Anglesey, so again if anyone wants to know about these, just ask.

I may be able to add to these sources as I go on, but in the meantime they're on offer.

LST_164

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warby

Hi LST164

i am researching the holywell town roll of honour and i wonder if you can look up Private Philip Jones age 22 date of death 10/7/1016 no 20977 of 14th batt rwf

son of edward and Winifred jones

thanks for your help

i have also a list of names of the 5th bat on the roll of honour(about 4) which i am trying to get more details on, i can send you these if you want but i don't want to create too much work for you

thanks again

Russ

e

Having had sterling service from various pals since recently joining the Forum, I decided to offer look-ups if desired from any of the following works (in original or copy format) of Welsh interest in my possession:

Who's Who In Wales, pub. Western Mail, Cardiff 1921. Has 551 pages of biographies of persons living at that time and connected with Wales. The compilers included a question about War service, so WW1 activities of civilians are often noted, as well as those of servicemen.

Absent Voters List, Parliamentary County of Carmarthen, 3rd edition (?1919). My copy may not be complete, but still substantial. As usual, it is in order of districts, parishes, streets etc. so an indication of where to look would be appreciated!

14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers - Nominal Roll of all ranks who embarked with the battalion for France on 1 December 1915, plus home addresses. ORs in regt. number order (c.20,000 onwards). Fatalities are noted. Additional list of all officers who subsequently served with the bn.; Honours & Awards, corrections & additions.

14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers - copy booklet which gives a brief digest or synopsis of the unit's War Diary or notes of activities between 21 November 1914 and 31 May 1919.

1-6th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers (TF) - Statement of Casualties reported to the Carnarvonshire and Anglesey TF Association up to 31 October 1915. This lists the bn.'s Gallipoli casualties, with nature of wound/injury/ailment, home address, and date of casualty.

Talar Gwroldeb - Nodion Cof Cewri Fy Ardal - volume by David Jones, pub. by J.T.Williams, Amlwch 1920. Mainly lists those from Amlwch town and surrounding parishes in Northeast Anglesey who died as a result of the War, but includes some who became POWs, were decorated, etc. Most have photos and a biography. Text mostly in Welsh (don't worry - I can translate!), with bits of home-made poetry and a specially composed "Memorial" hymn by the author. A scarce volume.

Cofeb Y Dewrion / Heroes Memorial 1914-1918 - by Rev. W.J.Owen, Bangor(nd). As with the above, but a larger volume chronicling fatalities from the city of Bangor, Carnarvonshire. In separate Welsh and English sections, according to the background of the deceased. Bits of verse added by the poetical author. Most have photos also.

My main long-term project is a list of WW1 fatalities connected with Anglesey, so again if anyone wants to know about these, just ask.

I may be able to add to these sources as I go on, but in the meantime they're on offer.

LST_164

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clive_hughes

Hello Peter,

I have checked the Carmarthen AVL as requested, and Llandebie Polling District absent voters take up some three pages in their several wards. Though I located one other man living in Llandilo Road, a Vincent Richards wasn't listed in any of the parish wards. The only conclusion one can draw is that he wasn't an "Absent Voter" at the time the list was compiled. It's a 3rd (1919) Edition and the only one available for Carmarthenshire, unfortunately. Would he have been demobbed by then?

Otherwise the people to ask are Forum member Steve John (who runs the Carmarthenshire War Memorials website), and Annette Burgoyne who has the KSLI database thread on this Forum.

Who's Who in Wales 1st (1921) Edition -

Joseph Alfred Bradney

CB, TD, DL and JP Counties of Monmouth & Radnor, FSA [so not yet a Sir in 1920 when this was compiled]

County Councillor Co.Monmouth; High Sheriff 1889

Born at Greet, Salop. 11 Jany. 1859, son of Rev. Joseph Christopher Bradney MA, Rector of Greet, Salop., and Sarah Decima, dau. of Rev. David Jones, Rector of Hope Bagot, Salop.

Educated Harrow, Trinity Coll. Cambridge - degree MA

Married Rosa, only child of Edward Jenkins of Nant-y-Groes, Co. Radnor JP and DL

Heir: son, Major John Harford Bradney, Welsh Guards [who has his own entry]

OC 28th Labour Group in Belgium & France 1917-18; commanding 2nd Battn. Monmouth Regt. 1892-1912; Reserve Battn. Queen Victoria's Rifles 1915-16

Chairman of Territorial Association for Co. Monmouth; Governor and on the Council, Welsh National library and Museum; member Royal Commission Welsh Monuments.

Publications: "History of Monmouthshire"; "Llandaff Records"; Transcripts of parish registers etc.

Politics: Conservative. Religion: Churchman. Freemason: No. 457 Loyal Monmouth Lodge; PPGW, Mon.

Address: Tal-y-Coed, nr. Monmouth Club: Boodle's. Motor Car: registration P5341

John David Griffith Davies

No entry appears under that name.

80670 William Charles Fenton Davies RWF

I'm not sure which source you're asking about here? not in Who's Who anyway. I had a look for a Medal Index Card for him, but couldn't match the given details.

Hope this is of some help anyway.

LST_164

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clive_hughes

Hi Russ,

A look at the 14th RWF's Embarkation Roll for 20977 Pte Philip Jones confirms he was killed in action (no date given), and shows an address "Trevor Mostyn nr. Holywell", which isn't all that specific.

A look at the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch (Bangor) website shows a P.Jones under Mostyn, Flints., and also under Holywell - see http://www.bangorcivicsociety.org.uk/pages/arch/DSCF4388.htm May or may not be the same man. I take it you've had a look at the set of Flintshire War Memorial cards at the County Record Office in Hawarden?

Though you're be welcome to run 5th (Flints.) Battalion RWF names past me, my sources for them are just going to be the standard ones (Soldiers Died, Commonwealth War Graves etc.). You'd be better starting a brand new topic on this Forum (under "Soldiers") asking for help with the 4 names - that should attract some others of the Forum's northeast Wales / RWF specialists who can contribute their expertise as well.

Regards,

LST_164

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pgarwood

Thank you for that info.

Richards may have left the army by then.

I knew Major John Harford Bradney, Welsh Guards [who has his own entry]

80670 William Charles Fenton Davies RWF

This was my grandfather!! 8670 Royal Welsh Fusiliers I have his medal card under William C. F. Davies.

Thanks

Peter

Hello Peter,

I have checked the Carmarthen AVL as requested, and Llandebie Polling District absent voters take up some three pages in their several wards. Though I located one other man living in Llandilo Road, a Vincent Richards wasn't listed in any of the parish wards. The only conclusion one can draw is that he wasn't an "Absent Voter" at the time the list was compiled. It's a 3rd (1919) Edition and the only one available for Carmarthenshire, unfortunately. Would he have been demobbed by then?

Otherwise the people to ask are Forum member Steve John (who runs the Carmarthenshire War Memorials website), and Annette Burgoyne who has the KSLI database thread on this Forum.

Who's Who in Wales 1st (1921) Edition -

Joseph Alfred Bradney

CB, TD, DL and JP Counties of Monmouth & Radnor, FSA [so not yet a Sir in 1920 when this was compiled]

County Councillor Co.Monmouth; High Sheriff 1889

Born at Greet, Salop. 11 Jany. 1859, son of Rev. Joseph Christopher Bradney MA, Rector of Greet, Salop., and Sarah Decima, dau. of Rev. David Jones, Rector of Hope Bagot, Salop.

Educated Harrow, Trinity Coll. Cambridge - degree MA

Married Rosa, only child of Edward Jenkins of Nant-y-Groes, Co. Radnor JP and DL

Heir: son, Major John Harford Bradney, Welsh Guards [who has his own entry]

OC 28th Labour Group in Belgium & France 1917-18; commanding 2nd Battn. Monmouth Regt. 1892-1912; Reserve Battn. Queen Victoria's Rifles 1915-16

Chairman of Territorial Association for Co. Monmouth; Governor and on the Council, Welsh National library and Museum; member Royal Commission Welsh Monuments.

Publications: "History of Monmouthshire"; "Llandaff Records"; Transcripts of parish registers etc.

Politics: Conservative. Religion: Churchman. Freemason: No. 457 Loyal Monmouth Lodge; PPGW, Mon.

Address: Tal-y-Coed, nr. Monmouth Club: Boodle's. Motor Car: registration P5341

John David Griffith Davies

No entry appears under that name.

80670 William Charles Fenton Davies RWF

I'm not sure which source you're asking about here? not in Who's Who anyway. I had a look for a Medal Index Card for him, but couldn't match the given details.

Hope this is of some help anyway.

LST_164

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warby

Thanks for the info, and your help, due to visit the hawarden records office again soon, hope to pick up some more details then,

thanks again

russ

Hi Russ,

A look at the 14th RWF's Embarkation Roll for 20977 Pte Philip Jones confirms he was killed in action (no date given), and shows an address "Trevor Mostyn nr. Holywell", which isn't all that specific.

A look at the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch (Bangor) website shows a P.Jones under Mostyn, Flints., and also under Holywell - see http://www.bangorciv...ch/DSCF4388.htm May or may not be the same man. I take it you've had a look at the set of Flintshire War Memorial cards at the County Record Office in Hawarden?

Though you're be welcome to run 5th (Flints.) Battalion RWF names past me, my sources for them are just going to be the standard ones (Soldiers Died, Commonwealth War Graves etc.). You'd be better starting a brand new topic on this Forum (under "Soldiers") asking for help with the 4 names - that should attract some others of the Forum's northeast Wales / RWF specialists who can contribute their expertise as well.

Regards,

LST_164

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clive_hughes

Peter,

Major J.H.Bradney's entry in the Who's Who is quite brief, just says DSO, Welsh Guards; formerly R.Monmouth RE, and Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry; served in South Africa and in the European War. Born 16th August 1886, son of Col. Joseph Bradney.

He received several mentions in C.H.Dudley Ward's History of the Welsh Guards. Was Lieutenant in the DCLI as above, became Captain on transfer to the Welsh Guards, then served in the BEF from 17 August 1915 to 19 April 1919. On the Staff from 11 May 1916. Major 19 November 1918.

Further digging in this volume shows that "Ginger" Bradney was an original officer of the 1st Welsh Guards on its formation (just the 9th to join the battalion) and began as 2nd in command of the Prince of Wales' Company. By the time they embarked in August 1915 he was 2nd-i-c of No.2 Company. He was also Mess President in the early days in France and tried to feed his fellow officers on rabbit, which led to his being deposed!

He seems to have been present at Loos Sept 1915 and the Hohenzollern Redoubt that October.

LST_164

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pgarwood

THe Bradney line died out brother Walter died in the Tank Corps 1918. All the other sons had no children.

The father, Sir J. A. became a widow and married a sweet younng thing very rapidly afterward.

JHB used to strut around the village in a sports coat with leather elbow patches, when the light was right you could see the holes in the jacket.

He was a pleasant fellow by all accounts.

Peter

Peter,

Major J.H.Bradney's entry in the Who's Who is quite brief, just says DSO, Welsh Guards; formerly R.Monmouth RE, and Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry; served in South Africa and in the European War. Born 16th August 1886, son of Col. Joseph Bradney.

He received several mentions in C.H.Dudley Ward's History of the Welsh Guards. Was Lieutenant in the DCLI as above, became Captain on transfer to the Welsh Guards, then served in the BEF from 17 August 1915 to 19 April 1919. On the Staff from 11 May 1916. Major 19 November 1918.

Further digging in this volume shows that "Ginger" Bradney was an original officer of the 1st Welsh Guards on its formation (just the 9th to join the battalion) and began as 2nd in command of the Prince of Wales' Company. By the time they embarked in August 1915 he was 2nd-i-c of No.2 Company. He was also Mess President in the early days in France and tried to feed his fellow officers on rabbit, which led to his being deposed!

He seems to have been present at Loos Sept 1915 and the Hohenzollern Redoubt that October.

LST_164

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Pozzi/Clough

Dear Clive

My husband's family feature in Rev w j Owen's book. Morris Griffith Pozzi and Alfred Pozzi. I can send you some more detailed info on the latter's war service, if you like, but am not sure of your interest. They were nephews of Charles Pozzi, local businessman and Bangor Councillor. Charles' own nephew, Fred, became the first Catholic Mayor of Bangor 1954-1956.

I would dearly love to find my own copy of the book, but no success so far. It is really kind of you to offer access to your own copy.

I have downloaded the pages for the 2 Pozzi boys from the Bangor Civic Society website, but I would be really interested to have a copy of the Nameplate, Introduction, Preface, or whatever other general sections there are.

Do you work solely through this website, or is it easier to give you an email address? it is gillian.clough@bluewin.ch

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clive_hughes

Pozzi/Clough,

Apologies, I have been away and only now picked up this message.

 

I can certainly look up the Owen memorial volume for you if wished - I don't think it is very rare, having seen a few copies over the years, but perhaps more likely to be found in a Welsh specialist secondhand booksellers stock?  It comes in both blue and red covers for some reason.  I'll be happy to email you as suggested, though I suggest you edit your original post so as to remove the @  - otherwise automated spam searchers may pick it up and send you unwanted messages! 

 

The member who specialises most re. Bangor on this forum is hywyn, you can try sending him a PM (Private message).

 

Clive

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David Jones

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Andrew Hesketh

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Hi Thomas Jones below was my Grand fathers Brother
 
 

Any chance of bothering you with another 14th Bn look up? His number suggests that he was an 'original', probably even a pre-war regular. I'm trying to establish a connection with Abergele. Betws is only a couple of miles away so this may be the one. Thanks.

Name: JONES, THOMAS

Rank: Corporal, No. 5460

Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 14th Battalion

Age: 21

Date of Death: 28/08/1918, Killed in Action.

Additional information: Son of Elias and Elizabeth Jones, of Tan Llan, Betws-yn-Rhos. Born and enlisted Betws-yn-Rhos.

Grave/Memorial Reference: Plot XXII. M. 3., Delville Wood Cemetery, Longueval, Somme, France.

clive_hughes

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Hello Andrew,

Sorry I can't shed a lot of light on this man.

He isn't on the 1 Dec 1915 Embarkation Roll for the 14th RWF, either in the main list or the "additional" one. As an embarking battalion, the vast majority of the personnel were in the number range 20,000-22,000 but it did fill up its ranks with some soldiers whose numbers were fairly close on either side of that series.

As far as I can tell, only 3 or 4 of the men had 4-figure numbers. These aren't New Army numbers but presumably men transferred from the Territorial battalions. Jones' medal card online doesn't suggest he suffered any number changes. The process of filling gaps from whatever source continued till the end of the War: two men NOT on the Roll who later won gallantry decorations had 4-figure numbers.

The only other thing I can add is the digest of the unit action for 28 Aug 1918 - the 14 Aug is noted as "Beginning of final offensive", with A Coy crossing a branch of the Ancre the following day before relief at Toutencourt. From 19 Aug they were on the "Brown Line" and preparing for advance. On 22 Aug the bn. was N of Henencourt, and moved to S of Bouzincourt then through Albert to assemble for the attack.

This took place at 04:45 on 23 Aug, in support of 13 RWF. 100 prisoners and 4 MGs captured at assembly point: 2 platoons of C Coy attacked a strongpoint taking an MG and 17 prisoners. At 01:00 on 24 Aug they attacked towards La Boisselle and Grandcourt, capturing strongpoints, 12 MGs and 100 prisoners. Unsuccessful enemy counter-attack against B Coy. which left another 30 prisoners behind. At 17:00 advanced towards Ovillers La Boisselle, mopping up, and B Coy again repulsed a hostile flanking movement on the left.

At 01:00 on 25 Aug attacked towards Contalmaison, advanced to position looking down towards Mametz Wood. On 26 Aug they advanced through Mametz Wood (that must have brought some traumatic memories back!) and drove the enemy out of Bazentin-le-Grand. C Coy took a strongpoint, 32 prisoners, 2MGs. The other Coys A B D attacked high ground on right capturing 8 MGs and 100 prisoners. Enemy counter-attack at 17:00

27th Aug they remained in front of Longueval. On the 28th (date of your man's death) a patrol found the enemy had retired from Longueval. C Coy occupied a line 200 yards in advance of the main Longueval-Flers road. Next morning 04:45 the bn was left flank of 113 Brigade in advance behind creeping barrage on high ground beyond Guinchy (?Ginchy), reached at 09:00. 30 Aug, Morval having fallen to 114 Bde, the bn. withdrew to Guinchy (rest of sequence as per your previous enquiry).

As I say, not much positive info but yr welcome to what I can scrape up any time!

LST_164

 

 

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clive_hughes

Hi David,

Private 5460 Thomas Jones first landed in France on 4 October 1915, as a member of the 9th Battalion RWF.  The rolls show that he subsequently left the unit a couple of times (possibly as a casualty, sick or wounded; and maybe having gone back to the UK).  If you message member Hywyn he might be able to tell you in which Times casualty lists he was mentioned, and their significance.

 

After the third "absence" he is shown as a member of the 15th (1st London Welsh) Battalion RWF, which does suggest that he was posted to a different outfit on return from the UK.  He then moves without comment to the 14th RWF.  My guess, and only that, is that when the 15th was disbanded in about February 1918, he was passed to the 14th in the same Division.  He left the 14th once and returned to it, maybe owing again to a hospital admission.  His highest rank achieved was Acting Corporal.

 

Killed in action (not missing), his back pay was sent to his mother Elizabeth as sole legatee, which means he named her in a Soldiers Will.  His war gratuity of £19.10s. was later sent to his father ??Elias, and the amount suggests he joined the Army in August 1914 or even earlier.  

 

Clive 

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Philip jenkins
On 08/07/2006 at 18:38, clive_hughes said:

Hello Hywyn,

I've checked the 14th's Embarkation Roll from Dec. 1915, and there's nobody with numbers in the 40,000 range included so they must have been in a later draft (highest nos. are 36,000, and only a couple of them at that).

As to the dates - well the 31 July 1917 is the opening of the 3rd Battle of Ypres, with the 38th Welsh Division successfully attacking Pilkem Ridge (Hedd Wyn and all that). A bit more is that they had relieved the "1/S.Lancs. Fusiliers"(sic) at Canal Bank, Elverdinghe on 20 July. On the 24th they marched to "H" Camp, and 2 days later a raid was conducted by one officer and 30 other ranks against enemy trenches, which were found to be unoccupied. On the 29th the bn. moved to Cardoen Farm, going into assembly trenches the next day by Hulls Farm, Canal Bank. They were engaged at Pilkem till 4 August when they were relieved and marched to Elverdinghe Chateau.

As for 20 Oct 1918, the Bn. had already been engaged recently on the Somme (see my thread note to Andrew of 19 June), and on 18-19 Sept were involved in the fighting for Africa Trench, Gouzeaucourt, before being relieved for the period 20-28 Sept. On the latter date they went to a position a half-mile SE of Heudecourt in readiness for a further advance. Moved to point near Peiziere on 3 Oct, then next day to W of Bony.

At 05:00 on 5 Oct their A Coy. took a pocket of resistance in the Hindenburg Line with 8 prisoners. At 11:15 the remainder of the bn took the lead in 113 Brigade, advancing through Bony (W of Mortho Wood), but were then held up and established position on the Le Catelet-Mauroy line. On 7 Oct established posts in Mortho Wood and sunken road to E. On 8 Oct at 01:00 they were in Bde. reserve for the assault on Beaurevoir, this being held up in pitch darkness at its centre, S of the Wood. At 06:00 the bn. with tanks and help of 114 Bde cleared the Wood as far as Angles Orchard, at 11:30 finding the enemy "in full flight". Losses in these ops. 11 all ranks killed, 29 missing, 53 wounded.

On 9 Oct went into billets at Malincourt, then on the 12th marched across country to billets in Bertry. A direct hit on the factory billets there at 05:00 next morning cost 6 killed 15 wounded. On 18 Oct, C Coy relieved a coy of 2/RWF in the front line, the remainder of the bn following across country by compass march at 20:30, to assembly position E of River Selle. On 20 Oct at 02:00 the Battle of the Selle began, after stubborn resistance A and C coys took the first objective 100 yds NE of the railway N of Montay, with few casualties. B and D Coys then moved through them, attacking & reaching final objective c1000 yds E the railway. There was vigorous fighting with enemy MG posts, on a wet and misty night. The attack had involved crossing a steep railway embankment, strongly wired and defended, and a further advance of 1000 yds uphill. Though entirely successful, the operation cost: Officers- 1 killed, 1 wounded. Other Ranks - 7 killed, 27 wounded. Bn relieved the next day and marched to billets in Bertry.

Hope that's OK! Yes I agree with you about "Church Island", Menai Bridge - only a mile or so from where I grew up. Very informative meml & generous in that they also include an Australian RFC and a New Zealand RNVR who died in the Bodlondeb war hospital, along with the local men. They include a Zeebrugge Raid fatality.

Cheers,

LST_164

 

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Philip jenkins

Hi Clive 

Not sure your still following this topic. Our relative Oliver Arthur Ling was killed on the 4.09.1918. Would be great if can shine any light on the battalions movements that lead to his death. 

Thanks a million 

Phil 

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clive_hughes

Hi Phil,

I'll check things up and come back to you later.

Cheers,Clive

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clive_hughes

Phil,

There's certainly some information out there about him, but the main thing I need to draw to your attention is his unit.  All sources refer to him as a Private in the 14th RWF until I checked the medal roll.  He arrived in France with 14th RWF and left the unit on various occasions, including seemingly getting back to the Depot in the UK 2 or 3 times.  "Leaving" can indicate various things, often after being wounded or for other medical reasons.  But after his final return to France it says he was posted to 2nd RWF, left that unit once and returned to it again before he was killed.

 

His service papers do not survive, so we can't know exactly what those "absences" were the result of, nor on what authority the medal roll compilers based his service with 2nd battalion.  It might be an error: but likewise it wouldn't be unknown for those compiling the other sources to assume he was with 14th RWF all the time, when in fact he had been switched to a different unit!  

 

The 2nd RWF was not in the same 113th Brigade of 38th (Welsh) Division as the 14th, but served from February 1918 in its 115th Bde.  So the overall picture of where they went and what they did was the same across the Division, but the unit details re. movements, trenches held, and attacks made etc. will differ. 

 

I will see if I can send you a pm (Private Message) with more details. 

 

Clive

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ss002d6252
22 hours ago, Philip jenkins said:

Hi Clive 

Not sure your still following this topic. Our relative Oliver Arthur Ling was killed on the 4.09.1918. Would be great if can shine any light on the battalions movements that lead to his death. 

Thanks a million 

Phil 

Oliver's war gratuity was £21.00 (Type 2).

 

This tells us that;

 

image.png

To try and narrow it we can look at mean with nearby numbers

 

#20673 was issued on 6 Jan 1915
#20679 was issued on 4 Jan 1915

 

This tells us that number, #20663, dates from  5th-6th Jan 1915.

 

Craig

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Philip jenkins

Hi Clive 

Not sure your still following this topic. Our relative Oliver Arthur Ling was killed on the 4.09.1918. Would be great if can shine any light on the battalions movements that lead to his death. 

Thanks a million 

Phil 

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