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clive_hughes

SOME WELSH SOURCES

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clive_hughes

Having had sterling service from various pals since recently joining the Forum, I decided to offer look-ups if desired from any of the following works (in original or copy format) of Welsh interest in my possession:

Who's Who In Wales, pub. Western Mail, Cardiff 1921. Has 551 pages of biographies of persons living at that time and connected with Wales. The compilers included a question about War service, so WW1 activities of civilians are often noted, as well as those of servicemen.

Absent Voters List, Parliamentary County of Carmarthen, 3rd edition (?1919). My copy may not be complete, but still substantial. As usual, it is in order of districts, parishes, streets etc. so an indication of where to look would be appreciated!

14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers - Nominal Roll of all ranks who embarked with the battalion for France on 1 December 1915, plus home addresses. ORs in regt. number order (c.20,000 onwards). Fatalities are noted. Additional list of all officers who subsequently served with the bn.; Honours & Awards, corrections & additions.

14th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers - copy booklet which gives a brief digest or synopsis of the unit's War Diary or notes of activities between 21 November 1914 and 31 May 1919.

1-6th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers (TF) - Statement of Casualties reported to the Carnarvonshire and Anglesey TF Association up to 31 October 1915. This lists the bn.'s Gallipoli casualties, with nature of wound/injury/ailment, home address, and date of casualty.

Talar Gwroldeb - Nodion Cof Cewri Fy Ardal - volume by David Jones, pub. by J.T.Williams, Amlwch 1920. Mainly lists those from Amlwch town and surrounding parishes in Northeast Anglesey who died as a result of the War, but includes some who became POWs, were decorated, etc. Most have photos and a biography. Text mostly in Welsh (don't worry - I can translate!), with bits of home-made poetry and a specially composed "Memorial" hymn by the author. A scarce volume.

Cofeb Y Dewrion / Heroes Memorial 1914-1918 - by Rev. W.J.Owen, Bangor(nd). As with the above, but a larger volume chronicling fatalities from the city of Bangor, Carnarvonshire. In separate Welsh and English sections, according to the background of the deceased. Bits of verse added by the poetical author. Most have photos also.

My main long-term project is a list of WW1 fatalities connected with Anglesey, so again if anyone wants to know about these, just ask.

I may be able to add to these sources as I go on, but in the meantime they're on offer.

LST_164

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6th Shropshires

Hi LST_164

Would it be too big a ask, if you could look up any K.S.L.I. in the Absent Voters Lists.

Also I have the medal roll entry for a Pte. Evans, Edward Thomas, 27010 K.S.L.I., born Beaumaris, Anglesey resided Wallasey, Ches. if you want the details just ask, indeed if any of the chaps you are interested in have a K.S.L.I. connection, and you want any info. on them just ask.

Thanks

Annette

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Dragon

Hello LST_164

I have been trying unsuccessfully to track down drill halls on Anglesey. I've had some help from various members of the Forum, I've talked to a resident of Menai Bridge about the drill hall there (which I have photographed), I've had some help from the records people and some of my own relatives live(d) on Anglesey anyway.

From a map that the RWF helpfully sent me, I understand that there was also a drill hall in Holyhead and one in Beaumaris, but they can give no information about addresses as the RWF's North Wales records were thrown away.

Perhaps you can help me towards an answer. Were there any others? If so, where were they? And finally, if there were any more, are any still standing?

If there were no others, why not? Where did Anglesey men train in the pre-War period? I've only come across the occasional reference to non-military local venues.

Any information would be very much appreciated. I've worked my way through quite a lot of Graeme's drill hall database (see thread in Nationals) in North Wales with my camera, because I want Wales to be properly represented. Neither Graeme nor I have yet come across anything to answer my questions about Anglesey.

Many thanks.

Gwyn

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clive_hughes

Hi, Annette

I'll try to look up the KSLIs in the Carmarthen register - may take some time but hang on in there...

Re. Evans from Beaumaris, yes I've come across him as a sort of "late entry" to my list because there's no trace of him on the town/parish Memorial. May have moved away when younger, and wasn't remembered (or accepted) as a "local" casualty when they drew up the lists. My basic info was from CWGC and SDGW, but anything you have would be welcome.

There are other Anglesey-related KSLIs, and again I'll have to hunt them out and pas them on, when time permits.

LST_164

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clive_hughes

Hello Gwyn,

Will try to rack my brains over this one...but at least I can confirm there was a Drill Hall in Holyhead. I have a 1923 map (25-inch: I mile scale, condensed)which shows it lay next to some allotments, on the (then) southern edge of the town, behind and accessed off MORETON ROAD.

Others should show on the 6-inch: 1 mile series of which I have a complete set for the Island, of varying 1900 / 1920s / 1940s dates. Will contact you again later.

LST_164

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pgarwood

Thank you for your kind offer.

My Grandfather was 88670 Pte William Charles Fenton DAVIES R. W. Fus

Do you have anything on him at all? No rush!!

(MIC shows BWM and BVM J/2?102 B29 Page 9460)

Thanks

Peter

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Dragon

Thank you very much, LST. Any information will be very welcome and much appreciated.

Is that particular building in Holyhead extant, do you know? I'll contact you privately about your information, anon.

Gwyn

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clive_hughes

Annette,

Attached (I hope) is a photo of Pte. William E. LEIGHTON, who is the only KSLI casualty who appears in the Cofeb y Dewrion memorial volume for Bangor. His name is also on the Memorial in Bangor Cathedral to local men who fell in WW1, and may well be on both the nearby Town Memorial and the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch across the road from it below the University (latter is a castellated gateway, upper room contains names of all fatalities from the 6 old Counties of North Wales arranged in county/parish order).

Translation of Welsh text reads:

"Willie Leighton was a young lad dear to many in this city, the son of Mr and Mrs Ernest Leighton, Fair View House, Bangor, but presently Derrington Street, Crewe. He joined the King's Shropshires in 1916, he was sent out to France in the same year. In the ever-memorable battle of Arras, Easter Monday 1917, he was badly wounded, he was sent home, and was here in various Hospitals for ten months. He was sent out again, and in a fortnight fell, to great grief and disappointment, having proved himself a valiant soldier. This last struggle in his story took place on April 22nd 1918, when aged 21 years. Quiet be his repose "until the day dawns and the shadows flee away"."

I thought this might be of interest. I have besides identified about 19 KSLIs on the Carmarthenshire Absent Voters Register. Will either post separately or if preferred email to you direct (if latter let me know by personal/email link).

Regards,

LST_164

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6th Shropshires

Hi LST_164

Thanks alot, I will send a PM.

Annette

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Andrew Hesketh

Hi there, and thanks for the offers.

May I trouble you to check whether either of the following appear in the 14/RWF nominal roll?

Name: ROBERTS, ISAAC

Rank: Private, No. 20138

Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 14th Battalion

Age: 35

Date of Death: 06/07/1916

Additional information: Son of Hugh Robert Roberts, of Bryny-gasag, Pantasaph, Holywell, Flints; husband of Eleanor Roberts.

Grave/Memorial: No known grave. Pier and Face 4 A., Thiepval Memorial, Somme, France.

Name: ROBERTS, THOMAS OWEN

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 14th Battalion

Age: 28

Date of Death: 18/09/1918

Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. William Roberts, of Bod-Gwilym, Abergele; husband of Jenny Dyrnogwen Roberts, of 19, Langdale Rd., Victoria Park, Manchester.

Grave/Memorial: Plot IV. F. 20., Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery, Nord, France.

Thanks,

Andrew

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clive_hughes
Thank you for your kind offer.

My Grandfather was 88670 Pte William Charles Fenton DAVIES R. W. Fus

Do you have anything on him at all? No rush!!

(MIC shows BWM and BVM J/2?102 B29 Page 9460)

Thanks

Peter

Hi, Peter!

Does your grandfather have a link to a specific source in my list, or do you know where he came from? Might help in trying to advise you. The RWF number he had suggests quite a late-war entry, but there are probably specialists on the Forum who could give a better opinion that myself re. this!

Regards,

LST_164

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clive_hughes

Hello again, Andrew!

The 14th RWF Embarkation Roll for 1 December 1915 has the following:

Entry no. 113 on Roll - 20138 Pte ROBERTS, I. Killed in action. Tynrhos, nr. Holywell NW (North Wales)

The next entry no. 114 was for 20139 Pte J.D.Jones of 8 Blue Bellach (?sic), Holywell, and I wonder if they knew each other or enlisted together?

His date of death coincides with the start of the Mametz Wood actions, though the unit did lose quite a few men just beforehand, probably to shellfire. For the period 5-11 July 1916 the digest of the Battn's service states they suffered 5 officers killed/DOW, 10 wounded; and 67 ORs killed/DOW, 233 wounded to England.

In the Officers' section (those who served with the unit at a later date), all it says is 2-Lt. ROBERTS, T.O. - Missing this as opposed to surrounding entries of Killed in action, wounded & to England, etc

In the digest, the Battn. was in reserve on 1/9/18 except for 1 coy. engaged at Morval. Next day they attacked & were held up at Sailly-Saillisel part way to their objective, but continued the advance the following afternoon to Mesnil-en-Arrouaise. Relieved on 5/9/18 to billets on N side of Delville Wood. On 8/9/18 the Battn. erected a wooden cross on the S edge of Mametz Wood in memory of their July 1916 casualties. To huts at Rocquigny 10/9/18. At 5:30pm on 11/9/18 they went into support W of Dessart Wood. On 18/9/18 at 4:15am Battn. attacked in front of Gouzeaucourt, B and C coys. took African Trench from African Support Trench. That's your man's date of death, though those coys were heavily engaged next day in defence & recapture of that trench, while A & D coys were attacked 6 times and finally lost their line. Unit relieved 20/9/18.

Hope this helps,

LST_164

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pgarwood

Thank you all I know is what I have from his medal and his MIC. I have not done any research on him other than that. He was from the Cardiff, South Wales area. No specific Batallion is indicated.

Peter

Hi, Peter!

Does your grandfather have a link to a specific source in my list, or do you know where he came from? Might help in trying to advise you. The RWF number he had suggests quite a late-war entry, but there are probably specialists on the Forum who could give a better opinion that myself re. this!

Regards,

LST_164

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clive_hughes
Thank you very much, LST. Any information will be very welcome and much appreciated.

Is that particular building in Holyhead extant, do you know? I'll contact you privately about your information, anon.

Gwyn

Gwyn,

I'm afraid I know little about the current status of old Drill Halls on Anglesey, as I live a long way from the Island. However, if its of any use, if you go to www.multimap.com and search for a map showing Moreton Road, Holyhead LL65 you will get a street map with red guide circle centered on that road, and the option of an aerial photographic view. When this is clicked, and if needed you choose 1:5000 scale, the SE edge of the red guide circle rests on a building which is the same shape & location as the Drill Hall shown in 1923 OS Map - so I guess it's still there!!

Will try to check the maps and other sources I have re. the Halls as they were in WW1, and report results.

Hwyl,

LST_164

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clive_hughes

Hello Gwyn,

Have been busy with the maps & other sources re. Anglesey Drill Halls.

In 1914 there was only one Territorial unit based on the Island, viz. a single Company of 6th Battn. RWF, based at Holyhead (I guess, maybe, No.8 Coy. because its the last one listed in my contemporary source). There was also the old Royal Anglesey Royal Engineers Militia/Special Reserve, who had a presence near Beaumaris. Judging by press coverage, the official Army recruiters on Anglesey in 1914-15 seemingly weren't based in the Drill Halls, preferring Bank premises, private addresses, and so on.

There are only 5 towns of any size, and I'm assuming they wouldn't bother with erecting Drill Halls in the country villages for such a low TF presence. I have therefore checked the urban bits of my set of 6-inch to 1 mile scale Ordnance Survey maps of Anglesey, which do note the existence of Drill Halls.

The trouble is, my set covers the whole Island, but at various dates between c1900 and 1948. So here goes...

HOLYHEAD - a Drill Hall shown behind Moreton Road, on the southern edge of town, in the 1923 Edition 25-inch large scale map. Recent aerial photo from www.multimap.com website seems to show a similar size and shape building still in place there.

MENAI BRIDGE - No sign of a Drill Hall on the 6-inch 2nd Edition 1901 sheet XIX.SE. If there is a Hall there now, maybe it post-dates my map.

AMLWCH - No sign of a Drill Hall on the 6-inch Revised Edition 1922 (with additions 1938) sheets III.NW and NE.

LLANGEFNI - A Drill Hall marked on the 6-inch 2nd Edition 1914-15 (with additions 1938) sheet XVIII.NE, as being on the eastern extremity of the town, on the (now) B5420 road to Penmynydd, and tucked just S of the town end of Chapel Street. A visit to www.multimap.com aerial photo unfortunately seems to show the Isle of Anglesey Council's offices have been built on part or all of the site, maybe other buildings also, and so I doubt that the Hall has survived.

BEAUMARIS - No trace of a Drill Hall on 6-inch 2nd Edition 1913 revised provisional Edition 1948 sheet XV.SW, though the R.Anglesey RE Special Reserve would be more in need of a Depot than a Drill Hall, technically, I suppose. The unit (which went into "Suspended Animation" in 1945) is commemorated by memorials in Llanfaes Parish Church about 1 mile N of the town and close to the coast; but if there were premises there maybe they got built over by the adjacent industrial complex (shown on my map) including Cammell Lairds shipbuilders.

There you have it - can I suggest maybe you contact the Anglesey County Records Office or Library Service re. the existence of old photos of the known Halls? Oddly enough, they may be based on the site of the Llangefni one...

Let me know if I can do more!

Regards,

LST_164

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clive_hughes

Thank you all I know is what I have from his medal and his MIC. I have not done any research on him other than that. He was from the Cardiff, South Wales area. No specific Batallion is indicated.

Peter,

from what you say, I doubt that your relative is included in my sources listed. Cardiff area is a big place (30 per cent of Wales population live within 30 miles of Cardiff). Please excuse me if I ask whether you've tried a search for his Soldier's service papers at the National Archives? - there's about a 40 per cent chance of success! (See the "Tracing a Serviceman" section on this Forum).

The Medal Cards which you have got a copy of did occasionally (?5 per cent) contain additional info on the reverse (unfilmed) side: they are presently in the keeping of the Western Front Association and in process of being properly organised, so it's too early to ask them to check for you...but try in due course!

He would quite probably have been included on the Absent Voters Lists of 1918-19 for the Parliamentary Constituency in which he lived. They survive patchily, usually in the relevant County Record Offices. Trouble is, which area(s) need to be checked; and who's going to plough through the reams of info in search of him?

Maybe family history can give you a clue where he came from (eg. his birth certificate)? Was he badly wounded or in receipt of a war pension?- could be a record in the Dept. of Social Services / PIN series at the National Archives.

If he was alive in Spring 1901, he will be on the 1901 Census - (if you know his age & year of death, just do a simple subtraction sum) - search for him by name online at the National Archives website, or ask one of the more experienced Pals to do it for you (I haven't used it yet).

You can try the RWF Regimental Museum, who have valuable resources and expertise, but please be aware they get lots of enquiries and have limited staff to cope with them.

Lastly, there may be all sorts of local sources available in the Cardiff/Glamorgan library and archive services which could help you.

I'm happy to offer any assistance I can, if you come up with more answers. Good luck!

LST_164

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Dragon

Huge thanks, LST.

So that I don't take up your thread, I've sent you an enormous email via the Forum system and copied it to Graeme, as it's his Project. If the email doesn't arrive, please let me know.

Gwyn

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Andrew Hesketh

Clive,

That's great information. Thanks very much for taking the time to respond.

Cheers!

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Andrew Hesketh

Any chance of bothering you with another 14th Bn look up? His number suggests that he was an 'original', probably even a pre-war regular. I'm trying to establish a connection with Abergele. Betws is only a couple of miles away so this may be the one. Thanks.

Name: JONES, THOMAS

Rank: Corporal, No. 5460

Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 14th Battalion

Age: 21

Date of Death: 28/08/1918, Killed in Action.

Additional information: Son of Elias and Elizabeth Jones, of Tan Llan, Betws-yn-Rhos. Born and enlisted Betws-yn-Rhos.

Grave/Memorial Reference: Plot XXII. M. 3., Delville Wood Cemetery, Longueval, Somme, France.

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clive_hughes

Hello Andrew,

Sorry I can't shed a lot of light on this man.

He isn't on the 1 Dec 1915 Embarkation Roll for the 14th RWF, either in the main list or the "additional" one. As an embarking battalion, the vast majority of the personnel were in the number range 20,000-22,000 but it did fill up its ranks with some soldiers whose numbers were fairly close on either side of that series.

As far as I can tell, only 3 or 4 of the men had 4-figure numbers. These aren't New Army numbers but presumably men transferred from the Territorial battalions. Jones' medal card online doesn't suggest he suffered any number changes. The process of filling gaps from whatever source continued till the end of the War: two men NOT on the Roll who later won gallantry decorations had 4-figure numbers.

The only other thing I can add is the digest of the unit action for 28 Aug 1918 - the 14 Aug is noted as "Beginning of final offensive", with A Coy crossing a branch of the Ancre the following day before relief at Toutencourt. From 19 Aug they were on the "Brown Line" and preparing for advance. On 22 Aug the bn. was N of Henencourt, and moved to S of Bouzincourt then through Albert to assemble for the attack.

This took place at 04:45 on 23 Aug, in support of 13 RWF. 100 prisoners and 4 MGs captured at assembly point: 2 platoons of C Coy attacked a strongpoint taking an MG and 17 prisoners. At 01:00 on 24 Aug they attacked towards La Boisselle and Grandcourt, capturing strongpoints, 12 MGs and 100 prisoners. Unsuccessful enemy counter-attack against B Coy. which left another 30 prisoners behind. At 17:00 advanced towards Ovillers La Boisselle, mopping up, and B Coy again repulsed a hostile flanking movement on the left.

At 01:00 on 25 Aug attacked towards Contalmaison, advanced to position looking down towards Mametz Wood. On 26 Aug they advanced through Mametz Wood (that must have brought some traumatic memories back!) and drove the enemy out of Bazentin-le-Grand. C Coy took a strongpoint, 32 prisoners, 2MGs. The other Coys A B D attacked high ground on right capturing 8 MGs and 100 prisoners. Enemy counter-attack at 17:00

27th Aug they remained in front of Longueval. On the 28th (date of your man's death) a patrol found the enemy had retired from Longueval. C Coy occupied a line 200 yards in advance of the main Longueval-Flers road. Next morning 04:45 the bn was left flank of 113 Brigade in advance behind creeping barrage on high ground beyond Guinchy (?Ginchy), reached at 09:00. 30 Aug, Morval having fallen to 114 Bde, the bn. withdrew to Guinchy (rest of sequence as per your previous enquiry).

As I say, not much positive info but yr welcome to what I can scrape up any time!

LST_164

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Andrew Hesketh

I hadn't thought that he could have been a territorial diverted into the 14th - probably a bit obvious now that you've suggested it!

The detail of the actions around the time is very useful indeed. Thanks for taking the time to post it for me.

Cheers,

Andrew

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Hywyn

Hello again LST

Re the 14th RWF I have the following two from the Deiniolen Memorial and would be grateful for anything on them/date killed in your docs.

Pte 40370 David Hugh Davies. 31/7/17

Pte 40371 John Foulke Williams 20/10/1918. There is an article in one of the Caernarfonshire Historic Society Transactions regarding Pte Williams. I'm awaiting suitable bad weather to trot along to the archives to look it up.

( re their numbers- there are about ten to fifteen on the memorial with numbers in that range who were casualties of the 1st Battalion in 1916)

BTW I recently visited the Churchyard at Menai Bridge - the one on the island in the Straits. Lovely setting for a Memorial. What impressed me further was that they had included the dates against each casualty. I'm sure there are many researchers out there who would give an arm and a leg for such info on their respective Memorials - I know I would.

Diolch

Hywyn

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clive_hughes

Hello Hywyn,

I've checked the 14th's Embarkation Roll from Dec. 1915, and there's nobody with numbers in the 40,000 range included so they must have been in a later draft (highest nos. are 36,000, and only a couple of them at that).

As to the dates - well the 31 July 1917 is the opening of the 3rd Battle of Ypres, with the 38th Welsh Division successfully attacking Pilkem Ridge (Hedd Wyn and all that). A bit more is that they had relieved the "1/S.Lancs. Fusiliers"(sic) at Canal Bank, Elverdinghe on 20 July. On the 24th they marched to "H" Camp, and 2 days later a raid was conducted by one officer and 30 other ranks against enemy trenches, which were found to be unoccupied. On the 29th the bn. moved to Cardoen Farm, going into assembly trenches the next day by Hulls Farm, Canal Bank. They were engaged at Pilkem till 4 August when they were relieved and marched to Elverdinghe Chateau.

As for 20 Oct 1918, the Bn. had already been engaged recently on the Somme (see my thread note to Andrew of 19 June), and on 18-19 Sept were involved in the fighting for Africa Trench, Gouzeaucourt, before being relieved for the period 20-28 Sept. On the latter date they went to a position a half-mile SE of Heudecourt in readiness for a further advance. Moved to point near Peiziere on 3 Oct, then next day to W of Bony.

At 05:00 on 5 Oct their A Coy. took a pocket of resistance in the Hindenburg Line with 8 prisoners. At 11:15 the remainder of the bn took the lead in 113 Brigade, advancing through Bony (W of Mortho Wood), but were then held up and established position on the Le Catelet-Mauroy line. On 7 Oct established posts in Mortho Wood and sunken road to E. On 8 Oct at 01:00 they were in Bde. reserve for the assault on Beaurevoir, this being held up in pitch darkness at its centre, S of the Wood. At 06:00 the bn. with tanks and help of 114 Bde cleared the Wood as far as Angles Orchard, at 11:30 finding the enemy "in full flight". Losses in these ops. 11 all ranks killed, 29 missing, 53 wounded.

On 9 Oct went into billets at Malincourt, then on the 12th marched across country to billets in Bertry. A direct hit on the factory billets there at 05:00 next morning cost 6 killed 15 wounded. On 18 Oct, C Coy relieved a coy of 2/RWF in the front line, the remainder of the bn following across country by compass march at 20:30, to assembly position E of River Selle. On 20 Oct at 02:00 the Battle of the Selle began, after stubborn resistance A and C coys took the first objective 100 yds NE of the railway N of Montay, with few casualties. B and D Coys then moved through them, attacking & reaching final objective c1000 yds E the railway. There was vigorous fighting with enemy MG posts, on a wet and misty night. The attack had involved crossing a steep railway embankment, strongly wired and defended, and a further advance of 1000 yds uphill. Though entirely successful, the operation cost: Officers- 1 killed, 1 wounded. Other Ranks - 7 killed, 27 wounded. Bn relieved the next day and marched to billets in Bertry.

Hope that's OK! Yes I agree with you about "Church Island", Menai Bridge - only a mile or so from where I grew up. Very informative meml & generous in that they also include an Australian RFC and a New Zealand RNVR who died in the Bodlondeb war hospital, along with the local men. They include a Zeebrugge Raid fatality.

Cheers,

LST_164

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Hywyn

LST_164

Many thanks for the information. It all helps to create a story around the casualties.

I have a copy of the War Diaries of the 10th Battalion RWF by Lt/Col Burton and Lt Comyns ( courtesy of Mark Hone ) should you want a look up

Diolch yn fawr

Hywyn

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droberts

Hi LSt 164,

I did some research into AE Wilkes 10th RWF who is Recorded on the Holyhead memorial. He died at ypres and is also recorded on the menin gate.

I can give you more details if interested.

regards

DAvid

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