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Remembered Today:

Map of the Bald Hill area of Israel


stevenbecker

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Mates,

I am trying to finish a chapter on the Camel Brigades battle around Bald Hill Palestine between 27th Nov and the 5th Dec 1917.

But I am having trouble finding a map that shows the features of the area.

I need this to see how the section posts were placed from a hand drawn map in the 4th Anzac Bn's war diary of the area.

Bald hill was a large whale back feature betwwen Mulebbis and Yehudiyeh, while is east of Jaffa.

The fighting was by the Turkish 20th Div and its attacks on the 2nd LH Bde, Camel Bde and 1/4Bn Hants 54th Div as part of the relieving attacks by the 8th Turkish Army to help the 7th Army in front of Jerusalem.

I also have a number of questions that relate to the features in the area, they are Bald Hill, Lone Tree hill or One Tree Hill and Point 265.

Also any maps of the "Ypres Salient" of the Bald Hill area where the 2nd LH Bde conducted its battle.

Cheers

S.B

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If you get no joy mate, send me an email before Weds & I will get one from the National Archives on Thursday. I have collected photos of quite a few of their huge maps but seem to have missed the area / period you want. They may or may not have details on the Camels but at least the features will be on there.

Cheers

Steve

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Thanks Steve,

Yes I would very much like that mate.

There is of cause a nice map which shows the action by your Bn (1/4 Hants) during this battle and the diary pages are also good, but it doesn't show details to the north and record much of the fighting by the Camel Bde.

Thanks mate I was hoping our mate in Israil would be on line as his map of the area of Beersheba was great, I need something like that to better understand the postions in the battle.

Cheers

S.B

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I’m not sure I have any WWI maps that could help. I have the Official History map volume at home (not the book itself though) and the aerial photos of Petach Tikva/Mulabis.

As for the topographical features, I have a 1:50’000 topographic map of the area. However, nearly the entire area is built now (3 towns...). A careful Photoshop work could usually uncover the height lines “under” the streets and buildings, but knowing the area quite well, it was always rather flat, not even crossed by anything but shallow dry wadis. If you like, I could scan those maps later today. Some of the area, was still a wasteland up untill recently. It was there also that that the memorial stone for an Australian soldier killed by a sniper, was uncovered some 20 years ago.

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Mate,

Thanks any help with a map that shows the features around this hill would be fine.

But pre WWII maps would be good and named ones of the features even better.

Mate as above I am trying to locate a number of place names of hills with a map as the Bald hill area was dug in by Aussie, Britsh and Turkish Troops.

The offical and non offical sourses (histories) I have, but don't give either the small features and others don't name the features on them.

I need a map that gives both if possible.

Mate what can you tell me about this stone you mentioned, if it has a name I can track it down in aussie sourses.

Thanks mate for any help here.

Cheers

S.B

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Mate,

Thanks any help with a map that shows the features around this hill would be fine.

But pre WWII maps would be good and named ones of the features even better.

Mate as above I am trying to locate a number of place names of hills with a map as the Bald hill area was dug in by Aussie, Britsh and Turkish Troops.

The offical and non offical sourses (histories) I have, but don't give either the small features and others don't name the features on them.

I need a map that gives both if possible.

Mate what can you tell me about this stone you mentioned, if it has a name I can track it down in aussie sourses.

Thanks mate for any help here.

Cheers

S.B

Well, all I have in addition to the maps of the official history, are modern maps. I'm posting a scan of such map from some 10 years ago. Some of the area you refer to, is still open land between some growing close towns, and the "bald" hill is still non built. I could send you the scan in high resolution, but that’s only helpful once you "strip" the map of the modern features and remain only with the height lines – usually enough to tell where were the wars positions.

16464_176715_tl.gif

1: "Bald Hill"; 2: Brian Templer Bartons' memorial 3: Petach Tikva/Mullabis 4: Kefar Ana; 5: Yahudiye ; 6: Yafa Hill

16464_176720_tl.gif

16464_176723_tl.gif

The stone put in memory for Brian Templer Barton in a field some half a km west of "bald hill". It was forgotten and turned on its face and discovered accidently in the 80s.

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Mate,

Thankyou so much with the maps.

Dispite their built up of houses its possible to still make some of the area out.

Can you help with the name of the feature (Pt 62 shown in Jewish) which is north of Yaffa Hill and south east of Bald Hill.

Can you also confirm are they kilometre grid squares on the maps.

Also are you aware of the names, One Tree or Lone Tree Hill which is surpose to be west of Bald Hill, can it be Pt 86 or 87 on your map or some other?

The main fighting took place around Pt 265 can you locate that on your map as the spot heights have changed over the years so I am unsure about this point of your map.

Again thankyou for the maps as you gave me much for check out.

Cheers

S.B

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Mate,

Thankyou so much with the maps.

Dispite their built up of houses its possible to still make some of the area out.

Can you help with the name of the feature (Pt 62 shown in Jewish) which is north of Yaffa Hill and south east of Bald Hill.

Can you also confirm are they kilometre grid squares on the maps.

Also are you aware of the names, One Tree or Lone Tree Hill which is surpose to be west of Bald Hill, can it be Pt 86 or 87 on your map or some other?

The main fighting took place around Pt 265 can you locate that on your map as the spot heights have changed over the years so I am unsure about this point of your map.

Again thankyou for the maps as you gave me much for check out.

Cheers

S.B

Hi Steve

I'm afraid at the moment I cant help you further then look at map 19 of the official history. The "lone tree" spot does appear there. If according to your sources that lone tree had been on some local summit, then I would guess (following the common rule that it would be on the best position around) it was some 500m south of number 2 (a square on the map is a square Km), near the small arched street just north east of a crossroad. That’s a local high ground dominating the surroundings and an old water reservoir was built there for tat reason. It also follows the scales of the map I have.

The name near point 62 is "Ma'as" but that's a small suburb built after the war. Point 265 is not marked on the map I have, so I don’t know where it was. If it is in the actual volume of the OH, I could check the library tomorrow. If you look carefully on the modern map, you could see the phantom of some of the old trails on the OH map. The modern road going north east of the bald hill is also on the old maps (leading to "Feja" back then) and the one going from near point 94 towards the north, is the one in the old map leading to "Old Mullabis". I know some researcher had published an article about the stone I showed, some 20 years ago. I'll try and find it: it might contain some geographic-historic data.

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Mate,

Thanks for checking I am afraid there are no maps that show these features.

The map in the OBWH is not in the copy I have, these are the ones just republished by Battery Press and the IWM. So I am not sure of the hill you mean either.

Some acounts give Bald Hill as Pt 265 but others dont and give Lone Tree or One Tree Hill as Pt 265, so far I am unable to sort this out to my complete satisfaction.

Below is the action inwhich Lt Barton was killed, althought not of him and his unit directly it should give you and idea of what happen that night, this is taken from my chapter on this battle of the book I am writing on the Camel Bde.

"The attacking company could muster only 6 officers and 100 other ranks (with the three attached officers) to carry out the raid, the foray was to attack from the south, the same direction used on the 29th Nov, and a similar raid was once more planned by the 6th Light Horse to support, this force was composed from C Squadron under Captain Doug Close with 5 officers and 100 men. Lieutenant Adolph the 4th Anzac Battalion intelligence officer carried out a reconnaissance of the Turkish position in the afternoon and at 7.40 pm the17th company left its trench moving up a small nullah from post 9 to a form up point within 300 yards of the Turkish line allowing the troops to line a nullah till the artillery fell at H Hour.

At 7.55 pm with a 10 minute bombardment, signalled Captain John Hampton to attack allowing the men time to reach the trenches before the guns would be switched to cut off the enemy’s escape to the rear while the Brigades machine guns would support the main attack. The 17th company started to advance in line on a section front in three waves, the Battalion Padre Captain Ignatius Bossence joined with the attacking force setting a fine example to the men, but again things began to go wrong from the start.

The Turks quickly recognized that an attack was coming and moved out of their trenches into no mans land to escape the worst of the shell fire which allowed them time to prepare for our attack. The attacking company ran straight into a prepared Turkish defence and a bayonet fight ensued as a line of spider holes were found 50 metres from their front line containing a skirmish line of Turks, they showered our men with bombs inflicting a large number of casualties before they were all killed but not before disorganizing and delaying the assault. Meanwhile on the left flank the 6th Light Horse found they had been blasted out of their positions by what they believed to be a defective gun which was short shooting, they lost 23 men wounded before the barrage lifted disorganizing their attack.

The main Turkish line was then attacked but the enemy opened with shell fire onto their own position and the cameleers could make no head way against a stiffening Turkish line which by chance we had missed the intended point of entry and so lost the full benefit of supporting artillery and machine gun fire. The cameleers tried moving along the line to find a weak spot to break in and capture the Turkish posts but no where could we gain a foot hold.

Adding to their problems that night was two officers attached to look at the Turkish defences, now found themselves wounded during the wild fight along the outer trenches and two sections of the 18th company were committed until we at last gained an entry into our objective which allowed only a brief inspection before the whistle was blown to order our retirement. With the raid now completed Captain Hampton ordered all troops back to the start point with the 10 minutes allowed for the raid long passed, and as the troops retired machine guns from the 3rd Battalion opened on the enemies defences which prevented the recovery of all our wounded. Captain Hampton stayed to help with these wounded and his direction of the withdrawal enabled all of the wounded to be recovered with the help of Sergeant Lionel Towner who rescued a number of men in front of the Turkish trenches, they were the last men to return with the Padre who went among the troops and wounded keeping their spirits up and by 9.40 pm all had returned but for Lieutenant Adolph who stayed to complete a final check on the enemies works before arriving back carrying a wounded man, only one man was believed left in the enemy’s trenches and he had been killed and could not be recovered. The Turks still alarmed by the raid continued to shell the area till 10 pm when all fell silent. The 6th Light Horse to the north had still advanced at H hour plus 10 and reached their objective bayoneting 20 Turks where they stayed long enough in the enemy’s trenches to capture four prisoners and some rifles before returning with the required information with the loss of one officer (Owen Tooth) and one other rank (Brian Barton) killed and one officer and 22 men wounded.

The loss to the 17th company was reported as two other ranks killed (Albert Cox and James Fairbairn) and Corporal Henry Johnson died of wounds on the battlefield and 4 officers and 32 men were wounded, from the 18th company Sergeant Albert Chard was killed hit in the head by a piece of shell fragment while waiting in support and 16 men wounded. Captain Graham Shipway the Battalion medical officer worked tirelessly throughout the night dispatching the casualties back to the rear, clearing all the wounded by 2 am but a further five men died of their wounds that night."

Barton was one of three brothers of whom Denis and Brian were in the 6th LHR, while Nat was a Maj in the 7th LHR, all the boys were from Wellington NSW.

Cheers

S.B

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

G'day mate

The OBWH does not carry a map showing Bald Hill - the map that comes close to this area has Bald Hill cropped out.

I have posted below a map with the features I think you might be after. The scale is 1:20,000.

post-7100-1150498570.jpg

Hope this helps to orientate you.

Cheers

Bill

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

I have tried to enhance the area around Bald Hill and Lone Tree taking out all extraneous interference but leaving the contours and and hill markings.

post-7100-1150499222.jpg

I hope this helps your story.

Cheers

Bill

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Mate,

Thank you that helps and again adds to my problems as I now have a good map of the battle area only it shows what I was a fraid of and that was where were the six posts placed along the Bald hill postion.

The map clears up what Point height Bald Hill was (309) while pt 265 (in all sourses) or is it pt 288 is shown as One Tree hill to its west. This gels with all Camel Corps records but not the AOWH and some books by Privete authors who followed the AOWH as a guide.

The problem of the three posts for the 16th Company is harder to find as I believe they may have been between Yafa Hill and Bald Hill with the post 1 (17th company) on Yafa Hill the extreme right Flank. But this appears by the map to be wroung as the last feature overlooking Wilihmnia is pt 243 while Yafa Hill is either pt 266 or pt 286 is further north.

The three posts of the 16th Comapny may be Pt 286 (Yafa Hill) pt 266 and maybe another between Pt 286 and Bald hill.

The two posts of the 15th Company can be mostly worked out as post 6 was Bald Hill but post 5 could be to its front left on pt 278.

What is confusing is the green area (trees) on the map as the only tree between Mulebliss and One Tree hill was the hill by that name hence its name.

Is this a later map when was it made?

But thank you for it as it makes the battle area come alive and I now can adjust my Trench map of the battle area.

Cheers

S.B

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

G'day mate

You will find that Point 265 is in actuality a contour marking - have your pick over the contour. However, if you track south east for a kilometre or so, you will see a point 266 which in the context of your article could be the place.

The map itself was produced in 1918 - as close to the time as possible.

The tree markings indicate a former treed area.

Cheers

Bill

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Mate,

Sorry I was redoing my reply as the feature you give as pt 265 is either Yafa hill or a feature around it pt 286 and not the pt 265 in all records.

The pt 265 is as you said the pt 288 feature which its contour line is shown as 265, this is in the correct postion as per my trench map for the reserve line on the morning of the 27th Nov and after the front line when Bald Hill was captured.

But all reports don't give this amount of trees in the area in fact the operset is given with the orchards around Mulebiss, not up on the hills.

But thanks again as it can now be looked at in detail.

Cheers

S.B

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

Here is the earlier survey map of the area - this was a civilian production and reprinted in 1917.

post-7100-1150503198.jpg

Hope this answers your other queries.

Bill

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Steve

In your opening post you mention that the 1/4th Hants were involved in the action. Do you mean the 1/8th Hants, who were part of 54 Div. Because the 1/4th Hants were part of 36 Indian Brigade, 14th Indian Division, and were enjoying the scenery at Mespot' in 1917, as I understand it.

Gareth

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Mate,

Sorry my mistake I think, I am unsure of your County names and there short cuts.

The Bn was 1/4 Northamptonshire Regt, should that have been Nth Hants?

Cheers

S.B

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

G'day mate

Just looking at the unit war diaries, this is the best guess for the location of BHQ.

post-7100-1150606182.jpg

Hope this helps

Cheers

Bill

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

G'day mate

Is this the trench map for the 3rd & 4th Battalion ICC that you have?

post-7100-1150780144.jpg

If so, you will find that Point 265 on the draft map is in MKS while on the map posted by me above, it is in FPS, so the point you are looking for for the beginning of the 3rd Battalion trenches is Point 288. When you work through that the references are easy to follow.

Cheers

Bill

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

G'day mate

The map below is constructed from the notes of the 2nd LHB, 5th & 6th LHR, ICC HQ, 3rd and 4th Battn War Diaries and specifically relates to 27 November 1917 with the prelude raid to Mulebbis two days prior. It left no doubt in my mind that the map in Gullett is incorrect in the placement of the 2nd LHB.

post-7100-1150785150.jpg

I might add that the 2nd LHB did not hold the ICC in any regard on 27 November 1917. Here is the WD entry for that day:

"BHQ moved 1/2 mile further back to avoid heavy shelling. Fierce enemy attack accompanied by heavy shelling by both heavy and field guns on Wilhelmina, the Camel Brigade line and right flank of ours. Camel brigade evacuated 265 rather leaving our right flank in the air and this can now only be used as an observation post. Enemy moved in some force through Mulebbis and were for a while enfiladed by a Hotchkiss Gun daringly used by Lieut Billington 5th LH who had a very advanced post with six men."

There must have been a few cranky words passed between units when the 4th Battn moved off unexpectedly.

Cheers

Bill

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Mate,

No you picked the wrong hill for your postions, Pt 265 is shown in a number of histories as Bald Hill not the 286 feature you have which is called Yafa Hill.

So if you move the markings for the 2nd LH Bde units (5th and 6th LHR's) and the 4th Anzac Bn ICC up to the Bald Hill Pt 309 then it would be correct.

When the 15th New Zealand Company retired from Bald Hill they fell back to Lone Tree Hill, which by the records was 400 yards to the rear of Bald Hill as per the map.

The 16th New Zealand Company retired from the south of Bald hill (Pt 309) as its posts were on Pt 286 (Yafa Hill) and Pt 266 and a third post I am yet to find, back to the Lone Tree Hill area where the Bn HQ and the reserve companies postions were south east of Lone Tree Hill.

Mate, the problem with the records is to find what hill Pt 265 is as the AOWH has it as Bald Hill while other accounts give Lone Tree hill as Pt 265, but as your map shows there are no Pt 265 in the area.

Did they use a different map? Well I don't know but its one of the problems in recrating this battle.

But I wish I had your prgram to show you what I mean.

Cheers

S,B

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Steve

G'day mate

Below is a map which includes Yafa Hill. The map is 1:40,000 with each square being 500 yard square.

post-7100-1150789959.jpg

Basically you need to make your data fit around Yafa Hill but in this time frame there is no information that matches.

In terms of the 2nd LH Bde the locations are very specific. 25 Nov at Point 275, 27 Nov 1/2 mile south of Point 275 which places it behind the 5th and 6th which are on the left of Point 265 which also serves as the pivot for the ICC. I can't see how it fits with your scenario.

You will find that on the 4th Battn Map, the location of this pivot, Point 265 is 1/2 mile almost due south of Bald Hill - a detail that fits in with the 2nd LH Bde description which I gave above.

You might have to re-think your comment through or else the descriptions in the WD's are a tad bit off. If you follow the point numbers, it is impossible to put Yafa Hill into the story - either in FPS or MKS - Yafa Hill is 230 yards in height which translates to 210 metres - no mention of a Hill 210 in any of the accounts.

Cheers

Bill

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Bill,

Thanks mate yes that does clear up the Yafa hill nicely as I confuzed the Pt 288 or Pt 266 with Yafa Hill, This makes the three post postions for the 16th company now makes sence, the three could be Pt 286, 266 and Yafa Hill.

And the one post of the 17th Company on post on Pt 249 over loking Yedudiye as per the map in the BOWH stetch 15 next to page 221 which shows Yafa Hill.

But as per Pt 265 no it doesn't as the above still holds with the know postions of the 15th Company on Bald Hill and the reserve posts on Lone Tree Hill.

There still is no Pt 265 on that map. The one you are giving is Pt 266 to the north west of Yafa hill as per your map, the hill south of Bald Hill is Pt 286 and not 265 either.

But if you use Pt 288 Lone Tree Hill as Pt 265 the Trench map of the 4th Anzac Bn makes sence but remember its made on the 3rd Dec not the 27th Nov as the postion had changed once the Bald Hill fell that day.

The raid Map shows the movement of the 17th Company on the 3rd Dec from the 4th Anzac Bn trench's to the 3rd Bn Trench's, but not all the 3rd Bn trench's are shown only the left flanking company trench's.

Cheers

S.B

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Bill,

As per the other sight;

Lets clear up this point about Pt 265, I like you have been confuzed but if we go to the sourses we can understand it.

4th Anzac Bn War Diary entery for 25th Nov;

"4Bn marched out and relieved the 2Bn on line Yehudiyeh and Pt 265 taking up posts on commanding features from right to left, extreme right one post 1 sect 17Co then 16Co furnishing three posts, then 15Co furnishing two posts extreme left, 400 yards west of Pt 265 18Co and 3 sects 17Co in close suport Bn HQ in Square 021-D".

Now we have the line but it is still not that sure where all these are but it goes on, 27th Nov;

"Enemy comcenced bombardment of post 5 (15Co) with HE, and post 3 and 4 (16Co) under cover of Artillery fire post 5 (Pt 265) held by 15Co retired at 0830 to a point 500 yards in rear, at 1230 post 2, 3 and 4 were evacuated and occupied by enemy......."

In the 15th Company War Diary for this battle it as the following;

"Hill 265 27 Nov";

"Camels were out grazing but turks shelled heavily and camels had to brought in. The shelling getting heavier men ordered to load up camels and get out very dangerous work the result being bivouacs and mens gear being left behind and five men wounded, 16Co then got shelled and had also to retreat but later on with assistance retook postions."

One would think reading the 15th Co account that little happened that morning and a disarster had not happened.

But I digress, Yes I was wrong post five was on Bald Hill (pt 265) not the post 6, where post 6 was I am still not sure, But it does confirm that Bald Hill is Pt 265 so I was wrong again and the AOWH was right in that Pt 265 is Bald Hill.

What the Pt 265 feature is on the raid map of the 17th Company when it is not the Bald hill I am unsure but I think its the Pt 288 feature or Lone Tree Hill but I open to other answers.

Any ideas out there.

Cheers

S.B

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