6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 29 November , 2008 Share Posted 29 November , 2008 I have a military marked 1917 dated PMR bit smooth on both sides... so this pattern was around war time. I have to say in the photographs of Sinai Palestine the bit most in use appears to be Lose Ring type and seem to have ditched the standard PMR bit.... Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 30 November , 2008 Share Posted 30 November , 2008 Arfur, You look familiar. I was with the troop from 1992-Jan 1996, were you around then? It was a Major Houghton was the CO then. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 5 April , 2009 Share Posted 5 April , 2009 nice avatar Arfur Double reins never really practical. Old means of having extra control over your mount if the enemy slashed your reins. dekenai also, Dulce Bellum Inexpertis I am afraid I cannot agree with you on the matter of double reins. The use of double reins with a double bit (bridoon and weymouth), is the most sublime of systems for the control of a horse. It is not just some affectation to have a spare set of reins in the military. It is ia very practical and essential system in the hands of a good rider. As for the current use of a Pelham with 'roundings', it is a nonsense and completely destroys the use of the bit, relegating it to a heavy snaffle. It maybe of interest to know that the port in the PMR is more a tongue groove than something to work on the roof of the mouth. By allowing more room for the tongue (and big horses have big tongues),it brings to bear the bar of the bit on the bars of the mouth. Whilst this is more severe than say a mullen bit, it does not have the same effect that might be imagined by the use of the word port. If it did work on the roof of the mouth, there would be a need to keep the mouth shut within the design of the UP bridle. This is not the case. Someone else said about the PMR coming in nickel silver. This is true, and very fine they look. However, they were soon changed to stainless steel. One of the reasons for this and for the same reason nickel stirrup irons went out of use, is due to nickel re-aligning its molecular structure when continually knocked. This leads to striations in the metal with the inevitable spontaneous cracking of the metal like glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 5 April , 2009 Share Posted 5 April , 2009 Steenie is right to say that in a bit like the PMR the low port is to provide space for the tongue. But it is important to separate the actions of the English-type bits, with no shanks or very short shanks, and which bear into the corners of the mouth under the tension of a tight rein and from the adjustment of the bridle, from the actions of the western-type bits with shanks that can be several inches long. The bit I use has 4inch shanks. With western shanked bits, which bear on the bars of the mouth (the lower jawbone) and are not fitted as tight into the mouth corners as English bits, the reins are only just in contact with the bit, and putting the reins 'on' (tightening the reins) must be done very gently. A good horse trained to a western bit will react to just a slight lifting of the wrist holding the reins. The shanks cause the bit to rotate in the mouth, and the very high-ported bits do cause pressure on the roof of the mouth as well as on the bars. They are very harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 5 April , 2009 Share Posted 5 April , 2009 Steenie is right to say that in a bit like the PMR the low port is to provide space for the tongue. But it is important to separate the actions of the English-type bits, with no shanks or very short shanks, and which bear into the corners of the mouth under the tension of a tight rein and from the adjustment of the bridle, from the actions of the western-type bits with shanks that can be several inches long. The bit I use has 4inch shanks. With western shanked bits, which bear on the bars of the mouth (the lower jawbone) and are not fitted as tight into the mouth corners as English bits, the reins are only just in contact with the bit, and putting the reins 'on' (tightening the reins) must be done very gently. A good horse trained to a western bit will react to just a slight lifting of the wrist holding the reins. The shanks cause the bit to rotate in the mouth, and the very high-ported bits do cause pressure on the roof of the mouth as well as on the bars. They are very harsh. Well said! The two schools of riding are so different that they are not compatable in anyway. Mind you it was said that the Instructors at the cavalry school at Canterbury could ride a horse on 2 threads of cotton, so sensitive were their hands. Be interesting to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 6 April , 2009 Share Posted 6 April , 2009 I'm sure I could have ridden with cotton thread reins too, but alas my American Quarter Horse is now older than I am in horse years, and we both have arthritis, so I'm not going to try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 6 April , 2009 Share Posted 6 April , 2009 I'm sure I could have ridden with cotton thread reins too, but alas my American Quarter Horse is now older than I am in horse years, and we both have arthritis, so I'm not going to try! Ahhh Anno Domini, the great and inevitable leveller of us all. Your comment about cotton thread reins is a classic difference between the two schools of riding and the use of reins and bit. One school uses loose reins and a long levered bit, whereas the other demands constant mouth contact. Interesting. As you may or may not know a group of about 20 horseman, plus another 3 horse-drawn vehicles (GS wagons), will be doing a commemorative ride in 2010. The ride is the Great Retreat of 1914, from Mons to the Marne. The distance is 200 miles over 10 days following the exact route and stops of the cavalry brigade. The ride will be completed in military tack including the use of the PMR. Well, my horses are all a bit long in the tooth for this. So I have just bought myself a 16:3 hhs, dark bay, 8 year old, gelding, irish draft cross Thorobred. He is all that a cavalry mount should be. He will and is helping me keep the effects of the grim reaper at bay as we both need to be fit for this event. It does not concern him that my joints creak so he is doing me good (I hope!! ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 6 April , 2009 Share Posted 6 April , 2009 Steenie - I almost, but not quite, envy you the ride. The not quite is the thought of doing such a distance in a cavalry saddle. Now if you were to do it in a nice comfortable western saddle, that would be a different matter! Now I'm going to be a bit picky: western riding does not involve 'loose' reins, if by that you mean slack reins. The action of picking up the long, loose reins with one hand to waist level makes contact with the bit and engages the horses attention, just like saying 'Squad!' to a unit of troops. From there a slight touch of the legs and/or the words 'walk-on' are enough to get him walking. The other big difference of course from English riding is the use of the indirect rein and not the direct rein. i.e. the rein making contact on the right side of the neck to turn left, and not tension on the left rein for the same result. Of course there is a lot more to western riding than that but this is not the place for it! Happy riding on your gy-normous nag! My boy is 15.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 Steenie - I almost, but not quite, envy you the ride. The not quite is the thought of doing such a distance in a cavalry saddle. Now if you were to do it in a nice comfortable western saddle, that would be a different matter! Now I'm going to be a bit picky: western riding does not involve 'loose' reins, if by that you mean slack reins. The action of picking up the long, loose reins with one hand to waist level makes contact with the bit and engages the horses attention, just like saying 'Squad!' to a unit of troops. From there a slight touch of the legs and/or the words 'walk-on' are enough to get him walking. The other big difference of course from English riding is the use of the indirect rein and not the direct rein. i.e. the rein making contact on the right side of the neck to turn left, and not tension on the left rein for the same result. Of course there is a lot more to western riding than that but this is not the place for it! Happy riding on your gy-normous nag! My boy is 15.2 You can be picky, as you are just clarifying what I mean't and the truth! The western school is more than a saddle and a big hat. It is a total mind set. However, with regard to going off topic, I do not think you are, as it is worth to explain the difference to those that do not kknow there is a difference. As far as a western saddle being more comfortable than a Staff Yeomanry and Colonial saddle, that is a matter of opinion and riding school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 As I have said earlier, I have just bought in a new mount (I suppose to be technically correct he is a remount). I have a full brown set UP Bridle with PMR in 5.5''. It is smooth on both sides. It is from the great war so it bears out what was said that the bit was issued in both types. The bit I have will do, but to my eyes, it is slightly tight. I have therefore, just ordered a PMR in 6'' manufactured by Eldonian with one side grooved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 As I have said earlier, I have just bought in a new mount (I suppose to be technically correct he is a remount). I have a full brown set UP Bridle with PMR in 5.5''. It is smooth on both sides. It is from the great war so it bears out what was said that the bit was issued in both types. The bit I have will do, but to my eyes, it is slightly tight. I have therefore, just ordered a PMR in 6'' manufactured by Eldonian with one side grooved. 6 inch is ENORMOUS. Are you sure he's a thoroughbred and not a Shire horse?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 6 inch is ENORMOUS. Are you sure he's a thoroughbred and not a Shire horse?????????? HAHAHAHHA!! He isn't a TB he is an irish draftxtb standing 16:3hhs middleweight. The average bit size for a cavalry mount is 5.5'' so another half an inch doesn't make him Sleipnir. My old showjumper, who is a TBX wears a 6.5'' bit!!! . Mind you he is 18:2 so he would look a bit dopey with a little mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 I bet he wears big boots too! When I bought my first Quarter Horse, when I was living in the USA, he was wearing ally racing plates, and I think he was sold because he was a slowcoach. When my farrier shod him with iron shoes, which he made himself from half-inch flat bar, the poor nag walked around to begin with as tho' he had diver's boots on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 I bet he wears big boots too! When I bought my first Quarter Horse, when I was living in the USA, he was wearing ally racing plates, and I think he was sold because he was a slowcoach. When my farrier shod him with iron shoes, which he made himself from half-inch flat bar, the poor nag walked around to begin with as tho' he had diver's boots on! I suppose they must be big boots but our farrier makes shoes on the day from bar so i do not know their size. You said earlier that you did not fancy sitting on a military saddle for 200 miles but you envy the ride despite this. As you know a cavalry unit is more than just the men in the seats. The proverbial swan, all silent beauty on the surface and the feet going like the clappers below the water. We are looking for experienced horsemen for our ground crew. Interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 I appreciate the invite hugely, and am very tempted, but sorry - no. I know I shall have commitments next year, including those organised by my social secretary a.k.a THE MANAGER PS. How do you get smileys into the text? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 When you go to reply to a posting, there is a whole bunch of faces to use on the left hand side. Just click on one like this and they appear Pity you are so tied up as our need for experienced hostlers is great. I got the 6'' PMR turn up today. A nice try in the making, but the person who finished it off had no idea what the bit was about. The real problem it has, is that the cheek piece rings are flaired out as you find in a pelham. This means the bit is not reversable, because if you reverse it, the flairs end up bending in. All I have to do is have the bit handy when my farrier turns up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 12 April , 2009 Share Posted 12 April , 2009 many thanks! I have been confused by only the description appearing in the window until it is fully posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Does anyone know the type of bit in use for either driven or ridden horses circa 1914-1918? Also any idea of a modern day equivelent? Hoping somebody can help. Ali HI ALI, if you e-mail me on jpc1916@googlemail.com i will send you a pic of a bit that i found at HIGH WOOD. JOE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 18 April , 2009 Share Posted 18 April , 2009 Does anyone know the type of bit in use for either driven or ridden horses circa 1914-1918? Also any idea of a modern day equivelent? Hoping somebody can help. Ali hi ali, i found this bit to the right of HIGH WOOD hope its of some help to you. joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bleep Posted 18 April , 2009 Share Posted 18 April , 2009 Ahhh Anno Domini, the great and inevitable leveller of us all. Your comment about cotton thread reins is a classic difference between the two schools of riding and the use of reins and bit. One school uses loose reins and a long levered bit, whereas the other demands constant mouth contact. Interesting. As you may or may not know a group of about 20 horseman, plus another 3 horse-drawn vehicles (GS wagons), will be doing a commemorative ride in 2010. The ride is the Great Retreat of 1914, from Mons to the Marne. The distance is 200 miles over 10 days following the exact route and stops of the cavalry brigade. The ride will be completed in military tack including the use of the PMR. Well, my horses are all a bit long in the tooth for this. So I have just bought myself a 16:3 hhs, dark bay, 8 year old, gelding, irish draft cross Thorobred. He is all that a cavalry mount should be. He will and is helping me keep the effects of the grim reaper at bay as we both need to be fit for this event. It does not concern him that my joints creak so he is doing me good (I hope!! ). Hi steenie I am new to the forum, interested in Cavalry, (have horse (heavy hunter 17.2)) - do you have any further information re your ride of the Great Retreat next year - I have read Richard Holmes' account of his ride some years ago and have always thought that it would be a great ride to do at some stage. Cheers in advance Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 18 April , 2009 Share Posted 18 April , 2009 Mark, Give me a ring about this expedition: 07968 341 392 Stan W Hi steenie I am new to the forum, interested in Cavalry, (have horse (heavy hunter 17.2)) - do you have any further information re your ride of the Great Retreat next year - I have read Richard Holmes' account of his ride some years ago and have always thought that it would be a great ride to do at some stage. Cheers in advance Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steenie Posted 18 April , 2009 Share Posted 18 April , 2009 Rumjar, Could that bit be German?? It has nothing about it, either civi or military that would make me think it is British. I am thinking it could be a type of bit used in draught maybe for drawing artillery?? I will have a good dig and see what I can find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bleep Posted 19 April , 2009 Share Posted 19 April , 2009 Mark, Give me a ring about this expedition: 07968 341 392 Stan W Will do over the next day or so - many thanks - Mark Sorry forgot to ask - any times that are convenient? Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 21 April , 2009 Share Posted 21 April , 2009 Rumjar, Could that bit be German?? It has nothing about it, either civi or military that would make me think it is British. I am thinking it could be a type of bit used in draught maybe for drawing artillery?? I will have a good dig and see what I can find out. hi mate, the bit was found with other items that are ww1. joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 22 April , 2009 Share Posted 22 April , 2009 Rumjar, Could that bit be German?? It has nothing about it, either civi or military that would make me think it is British. I am thinking it could be a type of bit used in draught maybe for drawing artillery?? I will have a good dig and see what I can find out. hi, found the same spot as the bit but not at the same time. joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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