Have the battlefields become too commercial?

[Hedley Malloch]

We forget at our peril that the main 'commercialisers' of the Front are the factory developers, house builders, farmers, road and railway builders, canal diggers, leisure facility developers - you know, the guys who send in the JCBs under whose jaws the Diggers have to work - and much whose destruction is financed with your money as an EU taxpayer

Tour operators and cafe owners are blameless by comparison.

[burlington]

I think we need to differentiate between commercial development, as at Boesinghe (? spelling), and the sort of tourist type development at the sites themselves.

In many cases, the former MAY be considered to be essential to the future; the latter MAY be feeding on the current enthusiasm for things WW1.

[Hedley Malloch]

I think we need to differentiate between commercial development, as at Boesinghe (? spelling), and the sort of tourist type development at the sites themselves.

How is a French or Belgian farmer growing yet more wheat to add to the European grain mountain doing anything 'essential'? And do we really need another car distribution facility in Arras, beer warehouse in Boesinge and plastic bag making factory in La Bassée? I can't see this.

On the other hand the bus drivers, waitresses and tour guides I have talked to really seemed to need the money.

[ianw]

So are we seeing Philip Johnstone's "High Wood " coming true again? Venality was certainly rife on the Western Front in the 20's and 30's . Similarly is the modern day coach driver with his cafe bung any different from say an ASC driver turning a blind eye to a rum jar going missing . It's simply human life. Can we seriously now expect the Western Front to be an area where human foibles such as greed and wheeling and dealing are suspended in perpetuity out of respect for the Dead ? Should we expect the modern day inhabitants of this area to live in a perpetually shrouded area as we approach a century in time since these great events ? If so we surely unrealistically ask too much. Or do we ?

[Clive Maier]

Yes, we do ask too much. People can't be expected to live in a museum just because their territory had the misfortune to be a battle zone. Surely it is right for life and nature to reclaim much of the killing fields, just as it is right for Aurel and the Diggers to record what is lost as that happens.

[Hedley Malloch]

Clive and Ian; I totally agree. All I ask for is a sense of proportion. Bus drivers and café owners are not the serious villains. They are not making mega-bucks and doing irrepairable damage in the process, . Industrialists and farmers are - often in order to produce things nobody really wants

[ianw]

Hedley,

This is a difficult area. Agricultural subsidies are a bit outside the terms of reference of this forum (Thank God !) but, if an absurd subsidy is available on a European wide basis can we expect Belgian and French farmers in certain historic areas to eschew taking it unless the potential benefit is replaced somehow. Similarly , industrialists and entrepreneurs will only invest in premises , and provide employment thereby , if they can see a profit from satisfying the wants of us discerning 21st century consumers - whether we live in Albert, Arras or Accrington.

[paul guthrie]

Ian I read High Wood by Johnstone for the first time recently and posted it here in it's entirety and said " he saw us coming didn't he?".

[ianw]

Yes, Paul, it's an extraordinarily prescient piece of work but it perhaps more accurately foretells what happened in the 20's and 30's rather than the very recent past. That said, we certainly have the opprtunity to screw up royally in future years if we are not careful.

Personally , I see a lot of reverence when I am on the Western Front. Even the much criticised applause at the end of the Last Post ceremony is simply a spontaneous expression of approval and reverence which is an acceptable response in many cultures. The growing numbers attending each evening are not there for the club culture !

[Alan Lines]

Even the much criticised applause at the end of the Last Post ceremony is simply a spontaneous expression of approval and reverence which is an acceptable response in many cultures.

I agree Ian. I was at the Menin Gate a couple of weeks ago and quite a few of the large audience applauded at the end which I thought was quite nice really.

[Simon R]

Dear All,

Is there really no statutory protection for battlefield sites on mainland Europe? From what I can gather from this thread, we're dealing with a wholly unregulated planning system which relies on volunteers (Diggers, whoever they are) to excavate in front of development, no statutory body (like Resource in the UK) to deal with museums, nobody like English Heritage, no regulation of nighthawks (metal detectorists looting sites), a completely free trade in illicitly acquired collectables and no recording of finds at any level.

Now, this surely can't be the case. Can someone please tell me what the actual state of play is here, I don't feel as if I'm getting the whole story.

Popularity is really the least of your problems if the above holds true (which I doubt).

[Hedley Malloch]

The situation is mixed and variable. All major French sites eg (Verdun, Crêtes de Vosges) are covered against scavenging and private developments, but not public ones. Public sector landlords vary between each other and over time. The Army looks after the Verdun forts; the equivalent of the Forestry Commission looks after the rest of Verdun and the Crêtes de Voges and many other minor sites, including some French WW1 cemeteries. Between them they have allowed some absolutely appalling developments - or have presided over some very tasteful and sympathetic restorations.

Sites of British interest (apart from CWGC cemeteries) enjoy no such protection apart from the normal afforded under French planning laws. As with any planning law there is a problem of enforcement. Big projects such as TGV lines and the Chunnel have tended to respect sites of British interest; I know that the TGV Est has had its critics on this site, but the way the the TGV Nord threads its way through the CWGC cemeteries around Arras show a brilliant blend of sympathy and wonderful engineering skills. Flanders has emerged as the logistics centre of Western Europe; this means that road, rail, canal and airport developments are always going to be a threat.

But where smaller projects are concerned, then British interests take their chance. In recent years we have lost Malin's hide, Dragon Crater, Y crater at La Boiselle and chunks of Neuve Chapelle to the JCB bucket. Whether or not the correct procedures are observed I don't know. But if they are, then they are observed in terms of the French local authorities, a world in which nobody knows (or possibly cares) whether these things are there.

British cemeteries enjoy some protection, but it is not absolute. If the French or Belgian authorities really want them moved, then they are moved. And in any event, what protection they have does not extend beyond the cemetery walls.

Other protection comes from being a designated UNESCO World Heritage Site. This is symbolic but very important. Next year it is likely that all the belfry towns in French Flanders (Armentieres, Arras, Bethune, Comines) will be awarded Word Heritage status - but not those in Belgian Flanders, or Picardy, the Somme or Artois.

Metal detecting for WW1 reamins is forbidden everywhere in France. But what hope is there for this law when metal detectors are freely on sale in the WW1 museum in Albert?

[Muerrisch]

In recent years we have lost Dragon Crater

If this is Red Dragon Crater, which I know has gone, when? I would really like an authoritative answer ........ there are as many versions of when and how as there are piglets in a litter.

[ianw]

Dee,

You wont get that sort of reaction here so ask any questions you like.

Personally , I regard such behaviour from your guides as just plain rude.

[Mark Hone]

Dee- As a grumpy middle-aged man I too have been annoyed by what I regard as a lack of respect by both children and adults while visiting the battlefields. In many cases it is not deliberate disrespect but thoughtlesness. The significance of a site and what constitutes appropriate behaviour has simply not been explained to these visitors. I am not claiming to be perfect but I spend a lot of time preparing my pupils for their visits to sites, particularly cemeteries and memorials. Understanding their symbolism and key features and showing visitors that these headstones etc commemorate real people is vital. Some of the proudest and most moving moments on the battlefield tours I have run have resulted from the unsolicited praise from other visitors of the behaviour of our pupils, memorably at Tyne Cot last year.

[Tim Birch]

Dee

I endorse what Ian said. Ask as much as you like on this forum. You will find everyone friendly and helpful. If you should happen to get no response, don't regard it as rudeness, it will just mean that no-one knows the answer!!

Tim

[Neil Mackenzie]

Dee.

There is no room for rudeness or disrespect whether in WW1 context or otherwise. However, what for one person is a simple field of little interest is for someone else a place of extreme personal significance where a relative fought and died. As Mark has intimated a lot of it depends on people not really understanding a particular site.

Less excusable in a cemetery though I would agree.

Neil

[Guest paddy]

Dee

In no way trivialising your feelings, there really always is "a bright side".

At least the kids are THERE!

No matter how insensetive they may appear, I would suspect that very few could remain totally unmoved by the experience. It may even be false bravado in front of their peers. At least the seed has been sown, and who knows how long flowering may take.

As for the Teachers & Guides, Well nobody's perfect! It's a reasonable bet your man simply didn't know the answers. Then again, is there only one answer, and who could be expected to know IT?

Hang in there

Pat

[ianw]

I rather agree with Paddy that we should be glad the young are visiting and cut them a bit of slack. After all the majority of the Dead they visit are much closer in age to them than to us grumpy middle aged folk (apologies to younger Forum users). We are surely much more closely related to the choleric old base Major and the Staff officers who did for them with our plans of attack.

I recently saw a group of Spanish teenagers at Tyne Cot which included some stunningly beautiful senoritas. They were demonstrating an obvious flirtatious zest for life and I couldn't for the life of me find their occasional laughter inappropriate on a lovely Spring day. Despite their lack of detailed knowledge of military history, I can't help feeling that the average young Tommy would have been much more pleased to see them arrive than me !

[Tim Birch]

On a number of trips to the Western Front I have noticed wedding parties using the backdrop of cemeteries and memorials for formal photographs. I don't think any disrespect is intended, and it is a compliment to the architects and CWGC gardners that these people find these places appropriate. However part of me wonders what on earth induces them to choose such places of sadness for what they probably consider to be the happiest day of their lives?

On reflection however most church wedding photographs in this country are taken in the churchyard with ancient leaning gravestones in the background. All part of the cycle of christnings, weddings and funerals intertwined in the overall experience of life. However the centre point is the church building with the graveyard being ancilliary. Not so for a war cemetery.

Philosophically

Tim

[Dragon]

We revisited Thiepval in September. When we arrived, a large party of British adolescents were swarming round the memorial, playing noisy chasing games, tossing around the few posies and poppies previous visitors had left, kicking a football and climbing the external walls. There wasn’t an adult in sight. Their teachers were having a smoke right at the bottom of the grassed area. From what I overheard, I don’t think the students had a clue what they were supposed to be doing at Thiepval.

Eventually they were herded off into a bus and another British school party arrived. We sighed in apprehension and despair, feeling that there was no chance of getting anything out of our visit.

We were mistaken. These students were of a similar age to the other party, but calm, interested and thoughtful, as were their teachers. Most of the students weren’t silent, and nor would I expect them to be. They asked questions and showed each other their finds on the walls. Their teachers were present, not in a draconian sense, nor in an authoritative, didactic sense, but just there, interested, friendly and you felt they were all engaged in a shared reflective experience which had the power to move everyone: teachers, students and anyone else who was visiting the memorial.

It was a sensitive visit which had a place both for those who were intellectually curious and wanted to discuss what they saw, and for those who wanted to stand silently absorbed, thinking.

Mark’s point about proper preparation is spot on and to it I would add that students will inevitably pick up messages from their teachers’ attitudes to the places they visit. If it’s seen as an opportunity for staff to have a furtive smoke, then what can the students infer about the point of the visit? Apart from that, it’s unprofessional behaviour.

I don’t look like a grumpy middle-aged gorgon and I never glare fiercely at any adolescents I see in the battlefields, so I don’t think I frighten them into tiptoeing round in awed respect. If the young people have a prepared purpose in visiting, they are perfectly capable of taking on board the serious atmosphere and purpose of a place of memorial and responding appropriately in their own way, which may not be ours.

When I encounter a student party which is clearly getting something out of the visit, I always make a point of going up to the adults in charge and congratulating them on their party’s demeanour. Leading groups of students isn’t an easy thing for anyone to do and I think positive feedback is never wasted.

Gwyn

[Dragon]

have noticed wedding parties using the backdrop of cemeteries and memorials for formal photographs.... However part of me wonders what on earth induces them to choose such places of sadness for what they probably consider to be the happiest day of their lives?

Hello, Philosophical Tim

You are assuming that the gravestones are still present in the completed photograph album...

Cynically yours

Gwyn

[Guest paddy]

I couldn't for the life of me find their occasional laughter inappropriate on a lovely Spring day. Despite their lack of detailed knowledge of military history, I can't help feeling that the average young Tommy would have been much more pleased to see them arrive than me !

Similar sentiment was expressed by Adam Lindsay Gordon's Sick Stockrider a hundred & fifty years ago.

Let me slumber in the hollow, where the wattle blossoms wave,

With never stone or rail to fence my bed;

Should the sturdy station children pull the bush-flowers on my grave,

I may chance to hear them romping overhead.

[Hedley Malloch]

... (snip) ... a large party of British adolescents were swarming round the memorial, playing noisy chasing games, tossing around the few posies and poppies previous visitors had left, kicking a football and climbing the external walls. There wasn’t an adult in sight. Their teachers were having a smoke right at the bottom of the grassed area. From what I overheard, I don’t think the students had a clue what they were supposed to be doing at Thiepval.

I was at a very popular WW1 battlefield site in August. There was a large school party at the site, average age 15-16. Their teacher climbed on top of a blockhouse and talked to them earnestly for about 15 minutes; I could not hear what was being said. At the end of his talk what looked like worksheets were distributed; the students were broken up into smaller groups of about 4-6 and dispatched to different parts of the site; clearly they had been given tasks to do.

Once out of the teacher's sight they sat down. Some sun-bathed - it was a warm day; others got out their cigarettes, more started to send and receive text-messages; one took out a CD player he had managed to conceal on his person; two more became ... well, how can I put it ... romantically entangled. I couldn't see anyone who was dedicated to the academic task in hand.

Ypres? No. Beaumont Hamel? No. It was at Hartsmannweillerkopf and the students were German.

[Nicolas G.]

Hello,

Find interesting things I agree in that thread. I am a young teacher and never organise a party of pupils for any kind of visit - only fellows on the Somme. Esp. the older which have WW1 in their program. Sad because I know well the places and what could be done.

So remarks, in France, because of the potential "behaviour" of pupils, the result is teacher minds is : "no more journeys / trips so no problems" Do you think it's a "solution" ? I mean teens have to live the classroom from time to time ? It's could be worth to take the risk ?

And visits have to be connected with worksheets, marks, pupils research etc. not leisure but work . So a lot to prepare for teacher. I must confess I have trouble making my mind about it. Also fear the bad experience you describe !

Nicolas