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Missing DCM Citation - Manchester Regiment


John_Hartley
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Pals

CSM John Hurdley, 6/Manchester, was badly wounded at Gallipoli and never returnned to active service.

He was awarded the Russian (?) Cross of St George , 2nd Class and this was Gazetted on 13 February 1917. I don't know why it took so long.

With absolute certainty, I know he was also awarded the DCM at some point, but I can't find any Gazette reference. If he won it for gallantry, then it must have been related to the Manchester's attack on 4 June 1915 but I rather suspect this might have been one of those "all round good bloke" awards.

Are there any Gazette Gurus out there who can weave their magic for me to find anything?

Any other info about Hurdley from Manc experts greatly appreciated.

TIA

John

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John:

155 Company Sergeant Major Hurdley, J.

1/6th Battalion, Manchester Regiment (T.F.)

For conspicuous gallantry on 4th June, 1915, on the Gallipoli Peninsula.

During an assault he was wounded in the head and partly paralysed, but refused to be taken to the rear, and continued to give orders and rally scattered parties in the Krithia Nullah. - It was largely due to his brave conduct that the advanced line was held.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

Steve.

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John:

155 Company Sergeant Major Hurdley, J.

1/6th Battalion, Manchester Regiment (T.F.)

For conspicuous gallantry on 4th June, 1915, on the Gallipoli Peninsula.

During an assault he was wounded in the head and partly paralysed, but refused to be taken to the rear, and continued to give orders and rally scattered parties in the Krithia Nullah. - It was largely due to his brave conduct that the advanced line was held.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

Steve.

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Steve

Many thanks for this - although it just adds to the puzzle.

Certainly he was badly wounded in the head. He survived and lived to a ripe old age (albeit with a metal plate in his head). However, the War Diary mentions him being wounded on 29 June (which seems to fit some of the other facts I know) rather than him being injured during a major attack. Hmmm.

John

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John

the printed version of the DCM citations gives exactly the same info, with the date 15-9-15 at the end which i assumed was the date of the gazette

claude worthingtons diary/great gable to gallipoli has CSM HARTLEY (oh aye???) wounded 29th june ( along with CSM hays )

so have you got the 6th WDs and been holding out? :D hopefully see you next friday

cheers

chris

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Chris

OK. The full story so far.

You'll recall my "previously uncommemorated" chap Worthington? In my Hellfire Corner article, I mention that at some point Worthington discovers "his CSM" wounded and carries him to the dressing station.

I've recently been contacted by descendent of CSM Hurdley who has read the article and believed that it must be him. I do, indeed, have a set of digi-photos of the War Diary. The originals are faded and in crap condition (written on flimsy paper) and the photos are even worse. I thought the entry on 29 June read Hurdley but have tonight also checked Great Gable to find it is Hartley (no relation).

So, I'm back to square 1 at the minute. Hurdley appears to have been wounded in the attack on 4 June. However the Stockport newspaper report about Worthington simply doesnt read as though this happened during a major attack (on in the aftermath), although anything is possible. On the other hand, Robert Bonner (in a note in Great Gable) mentions that Hurdley was CSM of "C" Company which I believe (although cannot prove) Worthington was also a member of - so it would fit that he was "his CSM".

My current "state of play" is that I've gone back to the descendent to ask exactly what made him think my article must be Hurdley. Could be there's some family history. Probably the clincher mught be how tall Hurdley was - the CSM referred to in the newspaper was 6' 4" - an exceptionally tall man for those days.

See you Friday.

John

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alright John!

hmmmm well at least i've sorted summat

sounds like you need a volunteer to see if CSM HURDLEYs ( and hartleys) records survived, height etc is on the enlistment papers.....isn't it?

cheers

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john,you have the correct man,CSM john hartley is one of worthingtons errors,he got a couple of his mens names wrong in his diary,check for yourself.

41443 john hartley 2/6th batt,pte,then served in pioneer corps

431 john,william,hartley 8th batt

19403 john,w hartley 21st batt

200 john,william hartley 11th batt,killed 1917,cpl

14881 john hartley ?then served with RE

58669 john hartley 20th batt

2105 john hartley 3rd batt,depot

1409 john hartley renumbered as 375152

all bar 2 were ptes

annette may be able to help with a background on CSM hurdley,he came from shropshire,he came to live in newton in makerfield to work as a labourer,he was about 33 years old.

i reckon your spot on,it was hurdley they found wounded.

bernard

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Bernard

But what's the proof for what you say?

The CO's personal diary says Hartley. My digi-photo of the War Diary appears to say it's Hartley (in spite of me originally reading it as Hurdley). The reason I checked more was because the descendent got back in touch having looked at the photo - he thought Hartley (and he had no prior knowledge of the matter).

And, of course, Hurdley's DCM citation says he was wounded on 4/6, not 29/6.

Hasnt Monsstar also got a copy of the Diary. Roy's hand might not have been as shaky as mine. This would confirm it one way or the other.

And yes, Chris, a volunteer to look up papers would be great. You're not off there are you?

John

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More.....

Info just received from the descendent confirms Hurdley was 6' 4". So, I am now confident that it was in fact Hurdley that Worthington rescued.

My only issue eliminate the reference on 29 June. So, two things, chaps....

Firstly, can we establish from another copy of the War Diary if this says Hartley or Hurdley.

And,secondly, was there a CSM (or Sgt) Hartley in 6/Manc at the time?

Assuming there was a Hartley and he is mentioned on 29 June, then it must be that Hurdley was injured on 4 June (or - more possibly - on 5 June after the attack).

Come on guys - I know how you hate a Manc Mystery.

John

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JOHN,no man in the manchesters with the rank of CSM hartley served with the manchesters,your right,worthingtons wrong,bernard :D

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Hi all

Looking at the medal roll 1914-15 Star for the 6th batt.

1. 1495 Pte B.E. Hartley 5/5/15 2b, to class P A.R. 1/5/17.

2. 155 WO11 (CSM) J Hurdley 5/5/15 2b, Discharged 27/4/16.

Looking at the "WD" for the 6th Batt

29 June, Fairly quiet day except for bombing.

Lt Gurley wounded in the leg

CSM Hay wound in both wrist throwing out a bomb from the bombing pit

CSM Hurdley wound

Pte Mortimer wound.

relieved by 1/5 Manchester at 5.0 hours & returned to ardwick green & redoubt line, Heavy shelling & counter attack agains 29th Divison as we were moving.

In Army Orders for Oct 1915 it gives the info for CSM J Hurdley DCM. & looking at the DCM's for the Manchester Regt theres no Hartley for a DCM in the Manchester's.

In Great Gable to Gallipoli page 24 it may have been a error he was the CO of the Battaion and would he have know all of his men at the time. He also says Pte Mortimer killed in the "WD" it has him down as wounded.

Has any one got his medal card to see if he has the SWB.

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Roy

Bearing in mind the importance of this, not only to my Tom Worthington story, but also for John Hurdley's descendent, is your copy of the WD clear enough for you to be confident it says Hurdley on 29 June.

I keep looking at my copy and changing my mind. I think I am now back to agreeing with you that it IS Hurdley. I'm basing this on the fourth letter which must be either D or T. Looking at the WD entries for the writer always "crosses the T" but it isnt crossed in this case (meaning it's bound to be a D). That said, the second letter looks much more like an "A" than and a "U".

But are you & Bernard saying that there's no likely candidate for a CSM Hartley in the medal roll either?

In which case, are we saying that Hurdley's DCM citation is wrong - in that his serious head wound was received on 29 June and not in the atatck on 4 June?

John

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Claude Worthington's diary covers the whole period of the fighting at Gallipoli (Great Gable to Gallipoli. Fleur de Lys Publishers. 2004) He is the senior Major in 6 Manch and commands the battalion from time to time eventually taking over command.

I think that the diary entry for 29th June has misled some members of the Forum. In it he writes'Lieutenant Gurley and CSM Hay and Hartley wounded and Mortimer killed'. He does not give a rank for either Hartley or Mortimer. Mortimer is 1311 Private Harry Mortimer. I suggest that Hartley was not a CSM.

In his extract from the Manchester Guardian of November 6th Claude Mentions 155 Company Sergeant Major J Hurdley as being Mentioned in Despatches.

John Hurdley certainly received both the DCM and the Russian Order of St George. After the war he was appointed Asst Commissioner (Rover Scouts) for S E Lancashire and aged 70 appointed a Priest of the Church of England and appointed Vicar of St Peter's, West Leigh. Also for many years secretary of the 6th Battalion Old Members Association.

John's Tom Worthington has to be the man who discovered his CSM wounded and carried him to the dressing station.

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I suggest that Hartley was not a CSM.

John's Tom Worthington has to be the man who discovered his CSM wounded and carried him to the dressing station.

Robert

The War Diary entry, for 29 June, definately gives the rank of CSM to the man recorded as Hartley/Hurdley.

I am now in absolutely no doubt that Tom Worthington "rescued" John Hurdley. I think the only point to be established is if this was on 29 June or, as the DCM citation, on 4 June.

John

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Hi John

If I was hit in the head with somethin I am sour it would make me partly paralysed, but the wound may not have rule him out of the battle, "eg" CSM Hay in his write up for his DCM it says

" he was twice wounded in the arm and later received a third slight wound but still continued to do duty"

This wounds to the arms may have happan on the 29 June like it says in the "WD".

So could this have happan with CSM Hurdley, he gets a head wound gets it sorted then gets on with his job.

As for Pte Hartley he was still a Pte in 1917 when he was Class as "P" in Army Regs on the 1/5/1917.

As for CSM Hurdley he was Discharged on the 27/4/1916 if someone has is medal card and lets me know if he was given the SWB I can look it up, as I have most of the SWB rolls for the Manchester, but I need the page No off the medal card.

I will still go with CSM Hurdley in the "WD" for the 29 June 1915, it says " CSM Hurdley also wound & Pte Mortimer also wound

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I will still go with CSM Hurdley in the "WD" for the 29 June 1915, it says " CSM Hurdley also wound

Roy

So - are you saying that your reading of the 29 June entry is that it is definately Hurdley?

By the way, his injuries were sufficiently severe that he was almost certainly unconscious when Tom Worthington took him to the dressing station (probably saving his life); that he never returned to duty from whichever day it was; and that he spent the rest of his life with a metal plate in his head. I doubt he got treated and got back to it.

I've downloaded his Medal cards - there were four of'em. Needless to say, the one you want was the 4th (the other three are are his Territorial Efficiency; his DCM and his MiD)

post-72-1146951163.jpg

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Hi John

Can you look at all of hes "MICs" & see if he as a "SWB" on any of them cheers Roy

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I'm just on this Topic to give John a new headache:

The Times 7-7-1915

List of wounded for the 6th Manchesters.

post-6536-1147101933.jpg

Normal delay was around a month before publication. The Gallipoli casualty lists don't have dates attached but the BEF list in the same issue lists casualties informed from "Base" (I believe in France) dated 20-6-1915.

A look on CWGC at when the "Killed" men on the same list died gives a range of 19/5/1915 to 13/6/1915 (as far as I have found).

Only officer casaulties were normally published within a week or so. I'm not saying he wasn't wounded on the 29th but the Times seems to point to the 4th....

E-mail me, John and I'll send you a copy of the page, if you like.

I'm not sure whether this helps...

Steve.

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I'm not sure whether this helps...

Hmmm.....

I may be getting to the point where we agree something like "There was this bloke wot got hurt sometime......"

It continues to be conflicting info.

John

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Hi John

Do you have is Service Records if not i will have a look on Wed 10 May cheers Roy

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Roy

Cheers, mate.

I'd started another thread asking if someone could do just that favour. Mike (Shinglma) has offered to check the war diary, tomorrow, to see if he can confirm the spelling from the original entry.

He doubts if he will have time to also do a service record check - so yes please, I'd be obliged if you could have a nosy. Obviously what I'm particularly interested in are any dates that might still exist that relate to his wounding (basically anything at all from 4 June onwards)

John

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Hi John

I have look at (WO 363 ) the Burnt Doc's & (WO 364) the Unburnt Doc's & the misname doc's he is not there (CSM Hurdley).

But Pte B.E. Hartley is he join the 6th Battn in 1912, he was born in Ancorts.

Embodied on the 5/8/14.

EEF 10/9/14.

He was in A Coy 1/6 Battn.

Pte 5/8/14 to 5/6/15.

Appointed (paid) L/Cpl 11/6/15.

Service:

Home 18/4/1912 to 9/9/1914.

EEF 10/9/1914 to 24/11/1915.

Home 25/11/15 to 1/5/1917.

NOK Mr Ben E. Hartley, Oak Bank, Couphill Road, Marple Bridge, Stockport.

Casualty Form-Active Service.

21/8/1915 Sick Gallipoli.

1/9/1915 Fever Cairo.

24/11/1915 Inverlided home.

Medical Discharge with Malaria 28/6/1917.

Hope this helps you

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Roy - many thanks.

I think with your info and that from Mike & Steve, I have this sorted to my satisfaction.

John

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