RAMC: researching Wilfred Lawton

[onthecauseway]

Barbara. For various reasons it has been a long time since I looked at this site and my family history but now back in the game. I have the MIC but not sure how I find out when and if he was in France. Can you or anyone else help me please. Paul

Hi Paul (onthecauseway)

Milner has provided you with valuable information in that your Grandfather's service number was 444117. In 1917 Territorial Units were allocated a range of 6 digit numbers and all those serving in the Territorial Force were given new numbers to correspond with the Unit they served.

The numbers 444011 - 446000 was allocated to the 2nd Southern General Hospital. T. Your grandfather's service number 444117 means that he was serving with this hospital.

The 2nd Southern General Hospital. T covered the military hospitals in the Bristol area, however, a part of it was sent abroad.

The War Diary opened at Bristol 16th Feb 1917 "Can you form a hosptial from Southern GH for overseas (France)?".

It arrived in France on 22 April 1917 and was sited at Etaples from 23/5/1917 - 26/4/1919.

Your Grandfather's MIC will tell you what medals he was awared and the place and the date he first arrived abroad.

Hope this helps

Barbara

[BJanman]

Hi Paul

According to this MIC Edwin did not receive the 1914 or 1914-15 Star so would not have gone abroad until 1916 or later. The fact that his service number 444117 is in the range of numbers allocated to the 2nd Southern General Hospital, Bristol and part of this unit arrived in France on the 22nd April 1917 means it is likely he went with them then, so you could try to trace their war diary at the National Archive to see if there is a nominal roll listed or check if he gets a mention. However it is also possible that he became part of a group of reinforcements to a different medical unit already serving abroad. The best information sources are Absent Voters Lists or local archived newspapers in the area he was living at the time, remember that Edwin served with the Territorial Force which changed it's numbering system in 1917, so it is highly likely that he began serving with a different service number and may be mentioned as Pte Scudamore with that service number.

Good luck

Barbara

[onthecauseway]

Hi Paul

According to this MIC Edwin did not receive the 1914 or 1914-15 Star so would not have gone abroad until 1916 or later. The fact that his service number 444117 is in the range of numbers allocated to the 2nd Southern General Hospital, Bristol and part of this unit arrived in France on the 22nd April 1917 means it is likely he went with them then, so you could try to trace their war diary at the National Archive to see if there is a nominal roll listed or check if he gets a mention. However it is also possible that he became part of a group of reinforcements to a different medical unit already serving abroad. The best information sources are Absent Voters Lists or local archived newspapers in the area he was living at the time, remember that Edwin served with the Territorial Force which changed it's numbering system in 1917, so it is highly likely that he began serving with a different service number and may be mentioned as Pte Scudamore with that service number.

Good luck

Barbara

Barbara

Spoke with Edwins daughter last night. She remembers him telling her that he was in France. She has a pocket English French dictionary in which is written his name and 444117, suggesting that at some point he was with the 2nd southern. You mention the war diary at NA. How would I go about reading this. Is there a better place on this site to post the question?

Thanks

Paul

[BJanman]

Hi Paul

If a war diary exists then it will be held at the National Archive. I tried to search their website but they appear to be having technical problems at the moment, so I have attached a link for you to try at a later date here

If you haven't already done so, you could post a request in the look up section on this site and ask if someone who goes to the NA frequently could do a look for you.

Barbara

[wollaston]

Hi Barbara,

I have just found the discussions in this forum that went on in 2006 regarding members of the RAMC and I wondered whether you are still able to offer any help with finding them in your father's papers.

My uncle was John Edward Woollaston, and according to photograph that I have of him he was in the RAMC. There is a Medal Card, I presume for him, in the National Archives at Kew which shows his corp as RAMC and his regimental number as 3451 (or maybe 2451) but I have been able to find little else about him as his attestaion papers were apparently amongst those destroyed in the Second World War. I also understand that I may be able to find his battallion number in the Medal Rolls at Kew and I will look that up next time I am there, but meanwhile, I wonder whether you have any reference to him.

Thanks in anticipation

Brian

[BJanman]

Hi Brian

John's MIC has his service number as 2451, he is listed under the name Wollaston. I do not have him listed with medical unit as yet. Unless he has another MIC stating he was awarded the 1914 or 1914-15 Star then he did not go abroad until 1916 or later. He does have an early number for someone who did not go until that late so he could have served with the Territorial Force. Do you know where he was living during the war?

Barbara

[wollaston]

Hi Brian

John's MIC has his service number as 2451, he is listed under the name Wollaston. I do not have him listed with medical unit as yet. Unless he has another MIC stating he was awarded the 1914 or 1914-15 Star then he did not go abroad until 1916 or later. He does have an early number for someone who did not go until that late so he could have served with the Territorial Force. Do you know where he was living during the war?

Barbara

Hi Barbara,

Thanks for your speedy response.

The service number may be 3451, it is not clear on the medal card. I hope to check this in the medal rolls at Kew on my next visit.

The family name was originally WOOLLASTON.

It is said that John Edward and my father enlisted on the same date. The acceptance of my father into the Royal Flying Corps is dated 1 September 1917, so I can only imagine that this would be the date when Uncle Jack was accepted as well. It is on this acceptance card that my father is first addressed as WOLLASTON, and so the same could equally apply to John Edward.

(After military service, John Edward reverted to the name Woollaston, but my father continued to use Wollaston.)

They were living in Wolverhampton when they signed on.

I understand that John Edward was gassed and therefore must have been in a war zone. He apparently changed a lot after the war, no doubt because of his experiences.

Although he lived only a dozen houses up the road, when I lived in Wolverhampton, we were not that close a family and I know nothing of his military service except that gleaned from a single photgraph.

If you do ever find his name mentioned. I will be most grateful for any gems of information.

Best wishes

Brian

[BJanman]

Brian

There is a strong possibilty that John Edward served with the 2/3rd North Midland Field Ambulance, TF. I do not have anything to hand that proves it but those whose information I do have who served with this unit all enlisted at Wolverhampton and his service number falls in line with theirs. Also this unit did not go abroad until 1917.

As you are going to the National Archive then it might be an idea to check their war diary. There is a slim chance that he may be mentioned but I have found nominal/members rolls in war diaries before so it is always worth looking.

Also, you need to be aware that if he did serve with the Territorial Force then his number would have changed so he may be listed with a six digit service number beginning 421...

There is still the chance that he didn't and I am working through rolls all the time, so keep an eye on the RAMC database on-line because his details may appear sometime in the futre.

Good luck

Barbara

[wollaston]

Brian

There is a strong possibilty that John Edward served with the 2/3rd North Midland Field Ambulance, TF. I do not have anything to hand that proves it but those whose information I do have who served with this unit all enlisted at Wolverhampton and his service number falls in line with theirs. Also this unit did not go abroad until 1917.

As you are going to the National Archive then it might be an idea to check their war diary. There is a slim chance that he may be mentioned but I have found nominal/members rolls in war diaries before so it is always worth looking.

Also, you need to be aware that if he did serve with the Territorial Force then his number would have changed so he may be listed with a six digit service number beginning 421...

There is still the chance that he didn't and I am working through rolls all the time, so keep an eye on the RAMC database on-line because his details may appear sometime in the futre.

Good luck

Barbara

Hi Barbara,

Thanks for that information.

I will certainly see if I can find anything in the war diaries and I have looked at the RAMC web site before and will continue to do so.

Thanks again

Brian

[Arnhem44]

Hi all,I was wondering if someone here could help,I purchased a Military Medal some time back to a Pte William Whitley 61981 RAMC,90th Field Ambulance from Dublin.His Gazette entry I have which is dated 17/9/1917 but only mentions him being awarded the medal and I also have his medal index card which is attached below,is there any way of finding out more about this soldier or even what he won the MM for?.I'm new to the research side of things,any help to point me in the right direction would be great.

Regards Brendan

[BJanman]

any help to point me in the right direction would be great.

Regards Brendan

I have come across citations for MMs in war diaries but it would depend on the officer entering information and if there was a lot happening at the time, i.e. a big battle where lots of medal were awarded at the same time. He may also be mentioned in a local newspaper around the time and in the area he lived.

Barbara

[Stephen Nulty]

Here's the card for his MM

[Arnhem44]

Thank you for the replies,I have a William Whitley found on the Irish census records from Dublin,with help from someone who has access to Ancestry them came up with this,according to Ancestry this man enlisted in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers but was discharged in November 1914 as being unlikely to make an efficient soldier.It also says this person got married in 1915,there is no other William Whitley listed on the census records for Dublin so its hard to tell if this is the same person.Just wondering would a soldier who had been discharged for such reasons be able to re-enlist at a later stage due to a shortage of manpower for example?

[Bookworm]

Going back to some 2006 posts on the subject, but better late than never, I can add some information on Capt C.M. Bernays.

Bernays, Charles Murchison, Lt (T/Capt), MiD

He was the only son of Dr and Mrs Herbert Bernays of Old Charlton, Greenwich, and was born in 1890. He joined 1/RWF temporarily on 05/08/1915 and left again two days later, destination unknown. He was mentioned in FM Lord French’s Despatch of 30/11/1915. On 24/09/1918 he relinquished his commission on account of ill health and was granted the honorary rank of Capt. The Times of 08/01/1920 reported his sudden death two days earlier, a few minutes after attending a casualty as a house surgeon at the Royal Victoria Hospital, Dover, as “due to haemorrhage, resulting from his having been badly gassed while on active service in 1917.” He is buried in Charlton Cemetery, Greenwich, Section A Con, Grave 158.

MiD (LG not found, BMJ 08/01/1916)

I am now gathering more information, including his death certificate, in an attempt to have his grave recognised as a war grave.

BW

[gingerpig]

I have two photographs one which will upload here and the other will not, despite much fiddling with size etc.

One is of an Army ambulance with uniformed men standing in it and in front of it; the top cover is off. Back of photograph says:

'Pte. Geo. B Blake, 152991, M.T.A.S.C. 644 Coy, Catford S.E.' and c/o Mrs A Bale or Bake (or Blake spelt wrong?) 39 Austins Streeet Wolverhampton.'

Other which will upload:

'A Riddell, 15779 Mt (underscored), 644 Coy. A.S.C.'

In the same writing opposite; 'Teviot', 143 S(V)imcoe Street, Victoria, BC Canada'.

On the same photo/postcard is written 'W. Davidson, Newmarket'

I think the photo is of A Riddell as I think he is in the line up in front of the ambulance.

My grandfather collected casualties from the Front by train and was also on ss 'Minnekahda' carrying troops home to the USA and Canada.

If anyone is interested in the group photograph let me know and I shall have another go in uploading it, it is a professionally taken photograph, so quite clear.

Veronica

[Borden Battery]

War Story of the Canadian Army Medical Corps

This is a very comprehensive "on-line" book on the Canadian Army Medical Corps during the Great War. This on-line book of some 300 pages [with text, figures and footnotes] includes the following chapters an Introduction, Rise of the CAMC, Assembly at Valcartier, Salisbury Plain, With the BEF in France, Second Battle of Ypres (Gas), Festubert, Givenchy, Plugstreet, Establishment of Hospitals in France, Stationary Hospitals and Other Medical Units. [Recommendation by marc leroux / www.canadianGreatWarProject.com][CEF Study Group - Jan 2006]

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/adami/camc/camc.html

The C.A.M.C. With the Canadian Corps During the Last Hundred Days of the Great War

The scanned 1924 document describes the actions of the Canadian Army Medical Corps during the Last Hundred Days of the Great War. One quarter of the total casualties of the Canadian Corps occurred during this period. [Recommended by Tighe McManus][CEF Study Group – Oct 2008]

http://www.dnd.ca/dhh/collections/books/engraph/details_e.asp?BfBookLang=1&BfId=48&cat=6

The Royal Army Medical Corps

The Royal Army Medical Corps was formed on the 23rd June 1898. The formation was the merger of the former Medical Staff with the Medical Staff Corps thus uniting the Senior Officers with the lower ranks. This website provides general overview sections, medical units and personal soldier profiles from each unit. [CEF Study Group - Oct 2010]

http://ramc-ww1.com/index.html

[LinaMoffitt]

BJay,

Here's another one I would appreciate your checking for.

I have been trying to research a Doctor who was assigned to the 9th Field Ambulance. Here is what I have found so far.....

Temp. Captain C(harles) F. Drew RAMC

19 March 1915- Appointed Temp Lieutenant --- L.G. 12 May 1915 (Supp)

1 June 1915 – Entered France --- Medal Index Card

19 March 1916 – Appointed Temp Captain --- L.G. 10 April 1916 (Supp)

24 Dec 1917 – Mentioned in Despatches (L.G. of same date? Pg.12484?)--- Medal Index Card

23 Jan 1918 –Relinquished commission on account of illness. – L.G. 22 Jan. 1918 (Supp)

1 Jan 1919- Awarded the Military Cross (No. 9, Field Amb) - L.G. 1 Jan. 1919 (Supp)

7 Nov 1924 ? Associated with Victory, British , Star (1915) & Emblems on MIC

Also shown as on Officer roll 141 Pgs. 204b and 338 .

No.9, Field Ambulance.

Joined 3rd Division Aug 1914

Left 3rd Division 28 Aug 1915

Joined Guards Division 28 Aug 1915

Duration?

I've been told that the records for Temporary Commissions were not kept, so his history has been difficult to ferret out. I tried to find him after the war, but don't really know where to start with civilian records.

Thank you in advance for any light you may be able to shed on this.

Dean

Dean I am also researching this fellow, can you please contact me. regards, Lina

[dachicourt]

Bonjour, je suis citoyen FRANCAIS , JE CHERCHE à joindre le descendant du caporal SYDNEY KAI , de la R A M C , matricule 32343, faisant parti du corps expeditionnaire ANGLAIS , arrrive sur le sol FRANCAIS , en 1915, ambulance 71.

J'ai trouvé une piece de monnaie , de NAPOLEON trois sur laquelle est gravée S.KAI R A M C 32343.

Apres recherche , il pourrait s'agir d'une plaque d'identité militaire , refaite sur une piece de monnaie , et , ayant probablement appartenue aux CAPORAL SYDNEY KAI de la R A M C .

Je suis à votre disposition pour de plus amples informations.

CORDIALEMENT

ANDRE DACHICOURT

FRANCE

[dachicourt]

Hello!!! je cherche toujours un lien pour joindre , un descendant du caporal SYDNEY KAY, arrivé sur le sol FRANCAIS EN 1915, faisdant parti de R A M C , 71 field ambulance.

En attach files , la photo de la piece de monnaie , avec les inscriptions suivantes :::

R A M C S KAY et le numéro de service 32343.

Please , quelqu'un pourait me venir en aide ?

Suis désolé , je ne parle pas ANGLAIS !!!!! je suis FRANCAIS , piece trouvée en FRANCE , département de la SOMME.

[DaveBrigg]

As an approximate translation:

Hi, I am a French citizen looking for a descendent of Corporal Sydney Kay RAMC Reg no. 32343 who was part of the BEF, arriving on French soil in 1915 as part of 71 Field Ambulance. I found a coin of Napoleon III engraved with S Kay 32343 RAMC and after research realised that it was a military identity disc probably belonging to Corporal Sydney Kay of the RAMC. I would welcome any extra information.

Please, is there anyone who can help me? I'm sorry, I don't speak English. I found this on the Somme.

His medal index card is below. That, and the lack of entry on SDGW, suggests he survived the war.

[dachicourt]

Hello!!!! tank you pour la réponse, je souhaite entrer en contact avec un descendant du capora

[dachicourt]

Hello , tank you , pour la réponse , je vais faire traduire en french , je souhaite que cette pîece soit rendu au descendant , fils , petit fils ou petite fille ,du CAPORAL SYDNEY KAY, je sais qu'il est né le 1 JANUARI 1897 , WIGAN LANCASHIRE.

Ce serait , pour le centenaire de la GUERRE DE 1914/1918 , de lui rendre hommage en rendant cette piece à la famille .

Je demeure en FRANCE , département de SEINE et MARNE (77)

[dachicourt]

Bonjour , tank you pour la reponse , je souhaite que cette piece soit donnée à un descendant du CAPORAL SYDNEY KAY, fils , peitit fils ou petite fille .

LE CENTENAIRE DE LA GUERRE DE 1914/1918, se serait une facon de rendre homage à ce soldat britanique du R A M C .

J e sais qu'il est né le 1 januari 1897 à WIGAN ( LANCASHIRE )

Désolé , je ne parle pas beaucoup ANGLAIS

[DaveBrigg]

"Hi, thank you for the answer, I want this piece to be given to a descendant of CORPORAL SYDNEY KAY, son, grandson or daughter.

THE CENTENARY OF THE WAR OF 1914/1918, it would be a way to pay homage to a British RAMC soldier .

I know he was born on 1 January 1897 WIGAN (LANCASHIRE)

Sorry, I do not speak much ENGLISH"

Je crois que j'ai trouvé cet homme sur le site Ancestry.

Pouvez-vous me dire comment vous savez que son prénom est Sydney, et qu'il est né le 1er Janvier?

[dachicourt]

Bonjour , je suis allé sur le site de la r a m c , j'ai mis le nom KAY , dans un moteur de recherche et cela m'a donné une fiche ou apparaissait son identité ainsi que sa date de D écés en 1968, internet faisant des mira