Air superiority at Gaza 1917

[Dolphin]

Bill

Yes, my understanding of the terms corresponds with those. As far as I know, a rank of Leutnant der Reserve indicates that the man received a wartime commission, ie he wasn't commissioned into the regular army.

On the Aerodrome Forum, you asked about the term Serno stab. This was a reference to Major Erich Serno, the German officer who was the commander of the Ottoman Air Service.

A photograph from Cross & Cockade Journal Vol 11, No 2, 1970 of a captured Albatros D.III being inspected by British personnel is below. I'd say that there's a fair chance that it's D.636/17.

Regards

Gareth

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

Finally a brief military biography of Dittmar.

Gustav Dittmar Born 24.11.1890

07.10.1908 1. /Esk. Kür. Rgt. 4

23.12.1909 Gefreiter

07.06.1911 Unteroffizier

05.08.1913 2./Flg. Batl.4

07.04.1914 Sergeant

02.08.1914 - 17.06.1915 FFA 2

15.08.1914 Vizefeldwebel

01.01.1915 Offiziers-Stellverteter

18.06.1915 - 12.09.1915 Fea 9

13.09.1915 - 30.09.1915 Insp. der Fliegertruppen

01.10.1915 - 31.03.1916 Osmanische Fliegertruppe

01.04.1916 - 07.10.1917 FA 300 Pascha

18.10.1916 Leutnant

03.01.1917 Kaiserl. Osman. Oberleutnant

08.10.1917 - 18.12.1919 In a British POW Camp

15.12.1941 - 19.05.1944 Junkers Factory Magdeburg as Military and Political Representative

1945 - Possibly kidnapped by the Russians

And this is how he looked in 1934:

At least we know who the pilot was and his history.

Cheers

Bill

Cheers

Bill

[bob lembke]

Finally a brief military biography of Dittmar.

Gustav Dittmar Born 24.11.1890

07.10.1908 1. /Esk. Kür. Rgt. 4

23.12.1909 Gefreiter

07.06.1911 Unteroffizier

05.08.1913 2./Flg. Batl.4

07.04.1914 Sergeant

02.08.1914 - 17.06.1915 FFA 2

15.08.1914 Vizefeldwebel

01.01.1915 Offiziers-Stellverteter

18.06.1915 - 12.09.1915 Fea 9

13.09.1915 - 30.09.1915 Insp. der Fliegertruppen

01.10.1915 - 31.03.1916 Osmanische Fliegertruppe

01.04.1916 - 07.10.1917 FA 300 Pascha

18.10.1916 Leutnant

03.01.1917 Kaiserl. Osman. Oberleutnant

08.10.1917 - 18.12.1919 In a British POW Camp

Guys;

I'm not an authority on the Near Eastern theatre, although interested, as my Dad was with the Turks in 1915. I hape to do a lot of research in a year or two.

However, a few comments that might be useful.

Feldwebel was a company top sergeant, "first sergeant" in Yank ranks and, I think, "sergeant major" with the Brits. Vizefeldwebel literally translates as "vice sergeant major" but he was not the Feldwebel's deputy, but rather was a platoon sergeant, and as the war went on many or most platoons were commanded by a Vizefeldwebel, not by a Leutnant.

01.01.1915 Offiziers-Stellverteter: As the war went on there was a tremendous need for more officers, but the Germans were always thinking about the post-war situation, and produced relatively few "regular" officers, instead turning out many lieutenants of the reserve and also some curious hybred ranks, such as Feldwebel=Leutnant and Offizier=Stellvertreter, which should probably be best translated as "acting officer", not "deputy officer", another literal translation.

01.04.1916 - 07.10.1917 FA 300 Pascha: Was FA 300 called "FA 300 Pascha"? Pascha was a Turkish honorific suffix granted to German as well as Turkish officers, but I believe over the rank of about major or lieutenant-colonel. Many German officers proudly kept using this honorific long after the war; e.g., Liman von Sanders Pascha. But lower-ranking officers were pronounced Bey. Was there a third title like this? It probably started at lieutenant.

18.10.1916 Leutnant

03.01.1917 Kaiserl. Osman. Oberleutnant: Higher-ranking German officers serving with the Turks were generally also granted a Turkish commision one grade higher. For example, a German lieutenant colonel Obrestleutnant would also be a Turkish colonel. Perhaps Dittmar, being made a German lieutenant, was then made a Turkish first lieutenant. I gather that, from the posts, that Dittmar was a Leutnant der Reserve; having been a private and then a NCO, it was almost or entirely impossible to then be made one of the relatively few "regular" lieutenants.

It seems odd to me that Dittmar was supposedly taken into the cavalry as a trooper before his 18th birthday. In peacetime Germans entered their (supposeldy) mandatory service in the fall of the year of their 20th birthday. Some cadet-type career paths entered at a younger age, but if he was one of these there should have been other ranks listed in his military biography above. Odd.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

I stated:

For example, a German lieutenant colonel Obrestleutnant would also be a Turkish colonel. Perhaps Dittmar, being made a German lieutenant, was then made a Turkish first lieutenant.

It seems odd to me that Dittmar was supposedly taken into the cavalry as a trooper before his 18th birthday. In peacetime Germans entered their (supposeldy) mandatory service in the fall of the year of their 20th birthday. Some cadet-type career paths entered at a younger age, but if he was one of these there should have been other ranks listed in his military biography above. Odd.

Of course, Oberstleutnant, not Obrestleutnant.

Possibly the dob of Dittmar is incorrect.

Bob Lembke

[Eceabat]

Hi Bob,

you are quite right about German officers serving with the Ottomans generally being given a step up in rank. However, ther term Pasha denoted an officer that in other serivces would have been considered as a general (or at least at the lowest level a brigadier general). As such for example, Mustafa Kemal did not gain the title pasha until he was appointed as commander of the Anafartalar sector in August 1915 at Gallipoli, having previously held the rank of colonel, commanding the 19th division. Even as the commander of an entire sector, with more than one corps under his command, Kemal was still only ranked as a brigadier general, though pasha he was.

Possibly, and I say this without any direct knowledge on the subject, the name Pascha given to FA 300 may have been adopted by the personnel themselves.

Cheers

Bill

[domsim]

Possibly, and I say this without any direct knowledge on the subject, the name Pascha given to FA 300 may have been adopted by the personnel themselves.

Cheers

Bill

My undrstanding is that that the German units were titled 'Pasa' not 'Pascha' is there a difference?

Cheers

Dominic

[Eceabat]

Hi Dominic,

probably any confusion in the spellings of pasha or pascha come from trying to anglicise the Turkish word, which is now written as pasa, the "s" having a tail (yes, I know the correct grammatical is cedilla) is pronounced sh. Remember too that a lot of Europeans of the time had problems with the spelling of Turkish words, especially as Turkish was then written in a form of the Arabic script. As such, even now I have seen about three versions of the name Ahmet (Achmet, Ahmed etc) pop up.

Cheers

Bill