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mercantile marine reserve


Guest jacrien

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Charles,

Thank you for that quote, could you tell me the reference? As I wrote in the pm to you, I passed this on to a friend who had been telling me just before this thread started that he couldn’t find any references to the MMR any where. He’d be interested in following up the details that you provided.

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David,

There is a difference between being factual and being relivent.

The RNR was a reserve of mechant seamen, but it was not the Mercantile Marine Reserve. It was as you wrote, in existance for about 55 years before WW1, there are service records and other records available to be traced, men could serve for 25+ year, re-enlisting every 5 years, it was a perminant organisation with officers etc.

Thr RFR were ex navy and that's what qualified them for that reserve. It was separate from the mercantile navy.

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The Mercantile Fleet Auxiliary came into being on the 24 August 1914, this was after the Admiralty issued an order that all merchant vessels ceased flying the Blue Ensign, and all previous warrants were cancelled. The vessels purchased or required by the Admiralty where issued new warrants and where manned by many different arms of the seagoing forces.

Regards Charles

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Please could you supply all the references that you have so that my friend can continue his research?

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a. The Merchant Navy. (Hurd)

b. History of the Royal Naval Reserve. (The Corporation of Lloyd’s)

c. Admiralty Orders August 1914 (Formation of Mercantile Fleet Auxiliary)

d. Admiralty Weekly Orders August 1916 (Formation of Mercantile Marine Reserve)

e. Instructions to Mercantile Marine Superintendents.

Regards Charles

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  • 11 years later...

Hello, Were all members of the MFA entitled to the mercantile medal as well as the usual trio or pair? 

 

Regards

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59be4361cd48a_MMMedal.jpg.df6aa5b3ef8f53c82379807fb50cdd8e.jpg

 

From the attached conditions of service for granting of the Mercantile Marine Medal it can be seen that, though they are not specifically mentioned, those serving in the MFA were entitled.  After all, they were Merchant Seaman, it is the length of sea service which is the criterium.

 

Tony

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

Hi

could anybody tell me where do I find service papers for the MFA

thank you

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Medal cards seem to be in WO 372 and ship-related records in MT 23 at TNAhttp://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q="Mercantile+fleet+auxiliary"&_p=1900&Refine+dates=Refine

Ships' logs, however, are in ADM 53.

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  • 1 year later...
On 15/10/2018 at 18:36, George Macdonald said:

Hi

could anybody tell me where do I find service papers for the MFA

thank you


It may help to think in terms of Mercantile Fleet Auxiliaries (MFA) being the actual ships themselves (commissioned naval auxiliaries)

and

Mercantile Marine Reserve being officers and men entered into government service under special naval engagements (Form T.124 and its variants) for the specific purpose of crewing the MFA ships (which often or not they were already employed on prior to the Government having taken possession of them).

 

As such, ‘service papers’ do not exist for MFA (i.e. the ships), only for the men serving onboard them - who would have consisted of a disparate collection of Royal Navy, Royal Fleet Reserve, Royal Naval Reserve, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, Royal Marines and ‘Mercantile Officers and Men serving under special naval engagements’. This final grouping ordinarily being the largest contingent onboard MFA’s, but the difference being that they were largely untrained in Pukka naval matters and procedures (i.e. they were ordinary merchant navy seamen, albeit now exercising their normal employment roles and functions in the service of HM Government).
 

You could try researching HMS Sunhill (which was the Administrative Authority for MMR from August 1916 onwards).
 

Michael

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  • 1 year later...

Hello New Member, I am Mark from the Naval Graves Project. I have two members of the MMR buried in the Catholic Naval Section of Rookwood Cemetery Sydney Australia. Michael McNally & John Harty from the Otranto both by a strange quirk died on the same day 15 Jan 1916. McNally was murdered by an Australian Army Infantryman, who as it turns out wasn't Australian but a Russian, who got upset over the argument on the merits of sailors over soldiers, followed Michael into the toilet and stabbed him. The witness was an artilleryman, not to might light of a mans death but the newspaper report reads like a bad joke .. "a sailor, a infantryman and a artilleryman were drinking.....   As for John Harty he was an Assistant Steward and thats about all I know. If anyone has any ideas I'd appreciate the advice. apart from CWGC Register entry and their medal listing  I have next to nothing on them.  I am writing Bio's for the Catholic Cemetery Trust and I would like to have some additional details  birthplace, date of birth etc. 

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Hello, I see John Harty has two hits on the naval-history.net domain, getting a mention in the casualty lists and the ship's log.

https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-08-HMS_Otranto.htm
https://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1916-02Feb.htm

MMR WW1 medal roll aside, any surviving source material will be in Australian archives. The following looks interesting, I presume you would need to physically consult the microfilm

Canberra: Australian Joint Copying Project, 19--. [microfilm].
MIC BT 128
Another Australian Joint Copying Project (AJCP) microfilm of registers of Certificates of Competency issued at colonial ports.
The registers are arranged by certificate number and entries give name, place of birth, year of birth and date of certification as Master, 1st Mate or 2nd Mate. The pre-1890 entries often give the name of ships on which the individual served. In some case deaths are recorded.

Geographical areas and dates covered are:

New South Wales 1872-1921
New Zealand 1872-1921
Queensland 1877-1921
South Australia 1874-1916
Victoria 1870-1921
Tasmania 1876-1919
As the originals are abbreviated register entries the information contained in the index is often everything that appears in the original entry. If you would like to view the original, the Australian Joint Copying Project microfilms are available at State Libraries and the National Library in Canberra.

https://www.sea.museum/discover/library/research-guides/seafaring-ancestors

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2 hours ago, Mark NGP said:

Michael McNally & John Harty from the Otranto both by a strange quirk died on the same day 15 Jan 1916.

Steward Harty died on 24 February not 15 January. Funerals on 18 January and 25 February.

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Sadly records differ..... I have researched over 677 naval burials in Rookwood and is not unusual for errors to appear.  Thank you for so kindly pointing that out...

225_2 Harty Rookwood Rc Naval.jpg

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4 hours ago, Mark NGP said:

I have two members of the MMR buried in the Catholic Naval Section of Rookwood Cemetery Sydney Australia. Michael McNally & John Harty from the Otranto both by a strange quirk died on the same day 15 Jan 1916. 

Strictly speaking ‘Mercantile Marine Reserve’ didn’t officially come into existence until August 1916, however (in practice) the names of all civilian mercantile marine crew members who served on ships engaged on dedicated government service appear on the post-war MMR medal roles (and are listed as MMR on CWGC website).
 

MB

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Thank you to all those have offered information and advice on where to look. Most of those we have looked into served with the Australian Navy and the records online provide all we require.  Harty & McNally being MMR were outside of our experience. There are so many naval graves within Rookwood Cemetery that for most only their existence and location  has been recorded we are now getting to the more detailed research.  The amount of unmarked graves has been staggering.. in the OLD RN section pre 1905 deaths there are 71 unmarked graves. Combing through the RN records at the UK Archives  we have identified most of the graves, the newspapers of the day have been both a  blessing and a curse. One of the difficulties has been sorting out the primary source documentation, so much we find is simply copied from document to document and is sometimes incorrect. As has been demonstrated on this thread headstones with incorrect dates of death, I have incorrect names on headstones  and sometimes in official documents. The Merchant Navy folks in Rookwood and Australia have not been included in our project to date, but one of our members has volunteered to take it on. I no doubt will be back to to request more of your assistance.  Thanks again...Mark 

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  • 1 year later...

So if a member of the MMR was serving on a ship at sea would he be considered more of a civilian or a serviceman? I see that there were definite civilians at sea in the Naval Canteen Service described as Admiralty civilians, but men of the MMR seem to be neither one nor the other. Did they have service numbers, pay in line with RN personnel, similar benefits etc? 

My attempts to compile a list of civilians killed in WWI will be vastly complicated if the MMR were considered as civilians! 

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In answer to your question, relative to your purpose, MMR seafarers were civilians. The good news is that MMR and MM men ought to be primarily associated with the Tower Hill memorial, and easier to identify. CWGC will classify them as Mercantile Marine fatalities, regardless of whether or not they sailed under a T.124 Agreement.

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Merchant Seamen listed as Mercantile Marine Reserve were employed under special naval engagements (Form T.124 and its variants) on ships that had been taken into Government service. They continued (more or less) to enjoy their previous civilian conditions of service, but they now became subject to additional obligations/restrictions by virtue of the fact that they were subject to the Naval Discipline Act. In other words, unlike normal civilian merchant seamen, MMR men were under direct naval authority for the duration of the war.

PS Their remuneration was in line with standardised merchant marine pay rates, rather than RN pay levels (therefore they earned substantially more than regular naval personnel performing broadly equivalent shipboard roles).

MB

Edit The CWGC commemorates the names of 1,776 MMR casualties, including (among others) Fireman Michael McNally, buried Rockwood Necropolis. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2745302/michael-mcnally/

Edited by KizmeRD
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On 28/02/2022 at 11:01, Keith_history_buff said:

It would appear the originals are in fact at The National Archives UK at Kew.
 

 
Etc.....

 

FYI, I have consulted these at Kew.  Important to note that theses certificates are only for Masters and Engineers... not members of the "ordinary" crew, (eg., deck hands, fireman, greasers, cooks, etc).

Moreover, to my experience, they provide very little additional information that one will not have obtained elsewhere, likely more easily, particularly given that the entries are not presented alphabetically, but by each master or engineer's certificate number.  (This can mean a long troll through the pages, looking for one's chap.)   By way of an example, the attached PDF contains a sampling from those I photographed.

Cheers,

Glen

In Our Dominion of the North

 

T - Certificate of Competency - BoT - Colonies - Engineers.pdf

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(1) Entry from the logbook of HMS Otranto 15 January 1916…

At Garden Island, Sydney

7.30pm: Received signal announcing death of Stoker McNally. [Entry from Casualty List: McNALLY, Michael, Fireman, MMR, (service number not listed), Otranto, 13 January 1916, illness]. - His funeral was on the 18th January.

The way that the logbook entry is recorded suggests that he died in hospital ashore (stabbed in a bar whilst on shore leave).

(2) Entry from the logbook of HMS Otranto 24 February 1916…

At Farm Cove, Sydney

7.50am: Assistant Ships Cook J Harty died suddenly on board. [Entry on Casualty List: Otranto, armed merchant cruiser. HARTY, John, Assistant Steward, MMR, (no service number listed), illness] - buried the following day.

One big difference between being a MMR crew member engaged onboard an HM Government ship, and a civilian seafarer employed on a merchant ship, is that ANY death in service of a MMR man is automatically commemorated by the CWGC (even when due to illness), whereas the cause of death relating to a seafarer employed on a merchant ship has to be directly the result of enemy action in order for it to be commemorated (and for his grave to be granted a CWGC headstone) i.e. death due to ordinary illness (or whilst ashore on leave) didn’t count for purely Merchant Navy civilian seafarers.

MB

 

 

Edited by KizmeRD
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