The woman sniper of Gallipoli

[harribobs]

Sorry, Harribobs, I fancy myself a great wit

Bob

i think you may have spelt that wrong

mostly in languages other than English, and therefore not accessable to many Pals,

that's fantastic Bob, i am really impressed, obviously German is one of them but we have many German pals, so which other languages Bob? i'm intrigued

if you are not an expert in the dress of 'these groups' why are you dismissing the photo?, my understanding of the ottoman empire was that it encompassed many religions and cultures

the photo is from the Kuvvai Milliye, i think you did say that you can't read modern turkish,(i am wondering what other languages you are reading about gallipoli for 7 hours a day in) it's from the archives of the 'Turkish War of Independence', the women in there are named as well

[pipvh]

Sorry, Harribobs, now I'm really fascinated (I had a great-uncle who was a Greek army vet and fought in the Greek Anatolian fiasco, and my grandfather narrowly escaped from Smyrna when it was captured by Ataturk). Do you know where the photo was taken, or who they are?

[bob lembke]

that's fantastic Bob, i am really impressed, obviously German is one of them but we have many German pals, so which other languages Bob? i'm intrigued

I did use the plural, but most of my Gallipoli/Turkish research is in German, but I have occasionally used a few other languages in the area, see below. In the last few weeks I have read the following on Turkish WW I matters. A recent German book on the activities of the Turkish/German naval forces in the area against the Russians and the Allied forces at Gallipoli and later on the rivers of the Middle East. Especial interest on the German volunteer naval machine gunners at Gallipoli, which was covered in some detail. My wife (who calls herself a Super-Librarian, and may have a Super-Librarian T-shirt) got it from the Princeton University library. As I said, I bought a book, Die Hoelle von Gallipoli , by Walter von Schoen, in Vienna two weeks ago, and I have largely finished it. Just got the Gallipoli Diaries of Sergeant Lawrence of the Australian Engineers (not surprisingly, in English) from my wife's library a couple of days ago and have finished part of it. (As I read, especially a borrowed book, I also create a set of 4" by 6" note cards, other cards, and enter exerpts in a set of time-lines, so the "reading"process is slow. If I am reading German or French for a few hours a day I am refreshed by reading a but of English in between.) I also have just read a bit of a book on the Freikorps that I just bought in Linz, Austria a couple of weeks ago, in German, of course.

if you are not an expert in the dress of 'these groups' why are you dismissing the photo?, my understanding of the ottoman empire was that it encompassed many religions and cultures

I think it is a great photo, but I was just wondering where it was from, and the ethnicity of the people in it. The Ottoman Empire was an enormous mix of peoples; the Turks conquered 60 nations, by one account. You presented it with no attribution, so I was fishing for more information. It could have even easily been from outsides the boundary of modern Turkey.

the photo is from the Kuvvai Milliye, i think you did say that you can't read modern turkish,(i am wondering what other languages you are reading about gallipoli for 7 hours a day in) it's from the archives of the 'Turkish War of Independence', the women in there are named as well

I once attempted to translate a scholarly paper in Modern Turkish; after three days of effort I was able to get about three pages two-thirds translated, absolute murder. The Turkish use of infixes (syllabiles inserted in the middle of a word to modify the meaning) as well as the use of the prefixes and suffixes that we are familiar with makes the straightforward use of a dictionary very problematical. My Turkish dictionary, at over 1000 pages, is quite insufficient. (For example, I got no hit at all for "Kuvvai", except possibly some play on the word for photo developing tray.) I read an excellent book in French on Gallipoli, a secondary source, a good while ago, but recently I tried to hunt up my note cards from that read and embarrassingly I could not find them. I have used Serbo-Croatian in Istanbul, when my fragmentary Turkish failed, when it turned out that the person I was trying to communicate with was a Bosnian refugee (a very funny but quite OT story), but we were talking about Bosnian food (actually Turkish food), not WW I. I have translated a bit of Czech (with some help from my excessively-clever wife) written in Suetterlin script on the topic of the fighting in the Balkans for a German dealer, but the topic was activities of Austrian forces in the Balkans, not the Turks. In a jam I read/skimmed a book in Italian in the National Library in Vienna, but it was on the 42 cm howitzers that my grand-father worked with in Belgium and Russia, not Turkey, and I have translated half of a diary kept by an Italian storm-troop officer, but again the topic was not Turkey, but the fighting against the Austrians. I do a bit of work in Flemish/Dutch, not hard if you have German and English; but only on West Front matters. I have a bit of Arabic (the US Army astonishingly approached me to sign up and ship out to Iraq as an interpreter, a very silly idea), but I have only found it useful in Turkey when the topic is religion, not WW I. (On the topic of religion you even find Arabic in Serbian)

My wife is the linguist, not I, but she has worked at work in dozens of languages for 25 years. (Her library has books in 293 languages, and she may have bought half of them.) She has 11 European languages down very well, with formal study. She has very good Latin and Anglo-Saxon, and much worse Old Norse (Viking-speak), so she has the three languages used in Britain in 400 AD, and additionally a bit of the Celtic. We try to speak a good deal of German, and when she needs a bit of amusement she switches into her excellent Danish, but the vixen pronounces it in German, while using the Danish vocabilary and grammar, totally flummoxing me. She is almost entirely English and Irish (her family came from the Midlands to Boston in 1634), with a bit of American Indian (Abanaki and Kiowa), so the rumors of the "English gene", which blocks people from the UK from learning a foreign language, is only an urban legend.

I have not said that I read about Gallipoli 7 hours a day; I average about 2 to 2 1/2 hour of study on WW I, mostly in German and French, bits of other things, perhaps 20-25% English. In the last 12 months I have read 268 French unit histories (I keep track with a spreadsheet so I do not read the same ones over and over), luckily most are very short; they range from 6 to 130 pages, probably averaging 20 pages. Lately I have been studying Gallipoli and the Freikorps, as I am trying to wrap up a book on my father and grand-father in WW I.

Bob

[bob lembke]

Sorry, Harribobs, now I'm really fascinated (I had a great-uncle who was a Greek army vet and fought in the Greek Anatolian fiasco, and my grandfather narrowly escaped from Smyrna when it was captured by Ataturk). Do you know where the photo was taken, or who they are?

"Pipvh";

We have a link, but you may not like it. In the early 1920's my father was eating in a Berlin restaurant, and he noticed two gentlemen eating; they were in civilian clothes, but he instantly "made" them for Turkish officers. (He had fought at Gallipoli as a volunteer, and loved the Turks.) Pop let his suit jacket slip open, and allowed them a view of his P 08 (Parabellum) in a shoulder holster. (He was in the Schwartze Reichswehr, closely linked to the riot police, and had a "carry permit", which I think I still have.) They came over, and asked him if he had more. In fact, he had 33 Parabellums (Lugers) at home. He happily sold them to the Turks, who were looking for arms, as the Greeks, with Allied support, were driving deeply into Anatolia, and of course no one would help the Turks one bit. To use a Greek word, the idea of Greeks driving deeply into the Turkish heartland was, IMHO, a serious case of hubris. The Askeri Mueze (Military Museum) in Istanbul has interesting exhibits on this campaign, including the dinner service of the Greek commanding general. The current much better relations between the Greek and Turkish people is a happy development, assisted by both peoples helping each other with emergency teams following recent earthquakes.

Bob

[Tom W.]

The young man in the center of the photo is wearing an Arab keffiyeh or headscarf, identifiable by the headband, called an igal. (See below.)

The black keffiyeh seems to be found most often in Iraq. In fact, the older woman appears to be wearing Iraqi Shi'ite garb.

The other men wear civilian clothes or Turkish uniforms with the black lambskin cap called the kalpak.

These could be Turkish troops with Iraqi irregulars. If so, the woman was likely just ordered to hold the rifle and grenade for the photo. No Shi'ite woman would have been allowed to fight in World War I or immediately after.

[harribobs]

Sorry, Harribobs, now I'm really fascinated (I had a great-uncle who was a Greek army vet and fought in the Greek Anatolian fiasco, and my grandfather narrowly escaped from Smyrna when it was captured by Ataturk). Do you know where the photo was taken, or who they are?

we are actually finding out some very interesting things about greeks fighting in the Ottoman army at Gallipoli, to be revealed later

The woman on the right in the black hijab was known as "Kara Fatma" (Black Fatma) presumably because of her never changing black attire. She apparently died in 1947 in Kayseri, Turkey. The woman on the left is called Ayse (i'm trying to find more) and she was from Gaziantep, presumably of Arab parentage but still 'Turkish' citizens. She apparently died in the late 1930s.

[pipvh]

we are actually finding out some very interesting things about greeks fighting in the Ottoman army at Gallipoli, to be revealed later

The woman on the right in the black hijab was known as "Kara Fatma" (Black Fatma) presumably because of her never changing black attire. She apparently died in 1947 in Kayseri, Turkey. The woman on the left is called Ayse (i'm trying to find more) and she was from Gaziantep, presumably of Arab parentage but still 'Turkish' citizens. She apparently died in the late 1930s.

That's interesting - thanks, haribobs. Kara Fatma, eh? Amazing. I was a bit wedded to my romantic notion of a fighting nun, but this is just as fascinating. If you look at the photos of Armenian irregulars (and Kurds, for that matter) they all look substantially the same - just goes to show what a confused and terrifying time it was.

I'm very, very interested in your findings about Greeks at Gallipoli.

[pipvh]

"Pipvh";

We have a link, but you may not like it. In the early 1920's my father was eating in a Berlin restaurant, and he noticed two gentlemen eating; they were in civilian clothes, but he instantly "made" them for Turkish officers. (He had fought at Gallipoli as a volunteer, and loved the Turks.) Pop let his suit jacket slip open, and allowed them a view of his P 08 (Parabellum) in a shoulder holster. (He was in the Schwartze Reichswehr, closely linked to the riot police, and had a "carry permit", which I think I still have.) They came over, and asked him if he had more. In fact, he had 33 Parabellums (Lugers) at home. He happily sold them to the Turks, who were looking for arms, as the Greeks, with Allied support, were driving deeply into Anatolia, and of course no one would help the Turks one bit. To use a Greek word, the idea of Greeks driving deeply into the Turkish heartland was, IMHO, a serious case of hubris. The Askeri Mueze (Military Museum) in Istanbul has interesting exhibits on this campaign, including the dinner service of the Greek commanding general. The current much better relations between the Greek and Turkish people is a happy development, assisted by both peoples helping each other with emergency teams following recent earthquakes.

Bob

Fantastic story, Bob - thanks for sharing it. Yes, of course I'm on the other side! :-) My grandparents were Ottoman subjects until 1912 (in Macedonia) and so from their point of view Constantinople, Trabzond and Smyrna were as Greek as Thessaloniki - Greeks were there first! And they were furious about the Armenian situation. But yes, you could certainly accuse Venizelos of hubris, and the Turks, fighting for their heartland, were an entirely different proposition from the demoralized armies the Greeks had recently driven out of Macedonia and Thessaly. My grandmother told me that her brother had suffered dreadfully and told her stories about men and horses reduced to living skeletons.

Funnily enough, while her father and most of her relatives had been busily fighting the Ottomans in the Macedonian resistance, my granny liked Turks quite a lot, which seemed to be the contradictory but prevailing sentiment. She remembered them as being kind and polite, and after the Greek army came through her town in 1912, after she'd tell us of the euphoria of liberation, she always added, rather bitterly, that the Greek soldiers left their homes full of fleas and lice... My grandfather, who had escaped onto a boat from Smyrna while the city burned and the Turkish armies were killing the stragglers, probably had less fond memories of the Turks, but alas, I can't remember his stories. It really was a ghastly time and no-one comes away from it with clean hands, Greeks or Turks. It really is good that the two countries get on somewhat these days.

[bob lembke]

Fantastic story, Bob - thanks for sharing it. Yes, of course I'm on the other side! :-) My grandparents were Ottoman subjects until 1912 (in Macedonia) and so from their point of view Constantinople, Trabzond and Smyrna were as Greek as Thessaloniki - Greeks were there first! And they were furious about the Armenian situation. But yes, you could certainly accuse Venizelos of hubris, and the Turks, fighting for their heartland, were an entirely different proposition from the demoralized armies the Greeks had recently driven out of Macedonia and Thessaly. My grandmother told me that her brother had suffered dreadfully and told her stories about men and horses reduced to living skeletons.

Funnily enough, while her father and most of her relatives had been busily fighting the Ottomans in the Macedonian resistance, my granny liked Turks quite a lot, which seemed to be the contradictory but prevailing sentiment. She remembered them as being kind and polite, and after the Greek army came through her town in 1912, after she'd tell us of the euphoria of liberation, she always added, rather bitterly, that the Greek soldiers left their homes full of fleas and lice... My grandfather, who had escaped onto a boat from Smyrna while the city burned and the Turkish armies were killing the stragglers, probably had less fond memories of the Turks, but alas, I can't remember his stories. It really was a ghastly time and no-one comes away from it with clean hands, Greeks or Turks. It really is good that the two countries get on somewhat these days.

What most people do not or chose not to understand is that, for centuries, the recognized minorities in Turkey (the Greeks, Armenians, Genoese, Jews; perhaps others) were accorded a special status and rights and duties that in balance allowed them to often achieve a level of affluence that could only be dreamed of by the "ethnic Turks", the Anatolian masses, who were almost all peasantry, while the minorities dominated trade and the skilled trades. They had their own laws, courts, religious (and perhaps secular) leaders, and exemption from military service, but also had sharply higher taxes. The problems of the minorities ironically seemed to start during the 19th Century during the efforts to modernize Turkey. When "equality" was to be imposed on the Bosnians, I understand, they were so opposed that they fought a 15 year guerrilla war against the Turkish administration. Unfortunately, in practice "equality" amounted to the cancelling of traditional privileges, while the down-sides of the old situation often persisted. This process extended into the 20th Century, even into the period between the world wars.

Traditionally (to generalize horribly) both the Serbs and Greeks Turks were supposed to hate the Turks, who occupied them for about 500 years, but the outside observer who is a bit knowledgable about Turkey or Turkish can perceive many things in language or culture among the Greeks and Serbs that come from the Turk, and probably is not understood by the Serb or the Greek. When dining in Greek restaurants I often find the classic Greek dish "Imam baldi" on the menu, and I often ask the server if they know what the phrase means, and generally they do not; only once the restaurant owner chimed in and knew. The phrase is Turkish, and means "the Imam fainted"; the origin supposedly is that this Turkish stuffed eggplant dish was served to an Imam (Muslim cleric), and he found it so delicious that he fainted at the table.

The word "kara" is one of the Turkish words in Serbian; there are two words for "black" in Serbian, kara, a Turkish word, and "cerno", a Slavic word. Although a small country, Serbija was blessed with two, not one royal family, and one of them, the Georjievic dynasty, was founded by the Serbian anti-Turkish hero, Karageorjie, or "Black George". (I remember buying several postcards of Karageorjie on a Beograd street corner a long while ago (probably early 1967, possibly 1971), and the Serb PC vendor burst with pride that a foreigner was interested in him. I do not know for sure why he was called "Black George"; but the traditional paintings of him to me suggest that he was of a swarthy complexion. (There supposedly was one village of blacks in Serbija or Cerno Gora (Montenegro, essencially Serbija on steroids for hundreds of years. Don't know if there was a connection.) But Kara might also be some sort of honorific. Another honorific applied to Black George was one of the most treasured Serb honorifics, "Haijduk", or "Bandit". (One might wonder about a people who use the word "Bandit" as one of their most treasured honorifics.) "Fatma" probably is the Turkish version of "Fatima", a very common Arabic given name for women; the name, I believe, of the daughter of the Prophet Mohammed, Blessed be His Name. Thusly, it is possible that Fatma is also an honorific, and not only a given name.

Bob

[pipvh]

The word "kara" is one of the Turkish words in Serbian; there are two words for "black" in Serbian, kara, a Turkish word, and "cerno", a Slavic word. Although a small country, Serbija was blessed with two, not one royal family, and one of them, the Georjievic dynasty, was founded by the Serbian anti-Turkish hero, Karageorjie, or "Black George". (I remember buying several postcards of Karageorjie on a Beograd street corner a long while ago (probably early 1967, possibly 1971), and the Serb PC vendor burst with pride that a foreigner was interested in him. I do not know for sure why he was called "Black George"; but the traditional paintings of him to me suggest that he was of a swarthy complexion. (There supposedly was one village of blacks in Serbija or Cerno Gora (Montenegro, essencially Serbija on steroids for hundreds of years. Don't know if there was a connection.) But Kara might also be some sort of honorific. Another honorific applied to Black George was one of the most treasured Serb honorifics, "Haijduk", or "Bandit". (One might wonder about a people who use the word "Bandit" as one of their most treasured honorifics.) "Fatma" probably is the Turkish version of "Fatima", a very common Arabic given name for women; the name, I believe, of the daughter of the Prophet Mohammed, Blessed be His Name. Thusly, it is possible that Fatma is also an honorific, and not only a given name.

Bob

I'm from a 'Kara' as well! - Karamanoli, 'Black Michael.' And on the other side of the family, Kazantzis, 'Kazan' being, I believe, the Turkish word for an ironsmith. Our family dialect was full of Turkish (and Serbian, and probably Ladino) words, and the cuisine, of course... The Ottoman Empire was exceptionally stable by the standard of the times, exactly because of the Millet system, though it had begun to break down towards the end, of course, particularly as they began to give their Christian subjects more autonomy (being too weakened to suppress them). The fact that everyone was cheek-by-jowl is largely ignored these days, though, which is a shame, but of course we're talking about the Balkans, where history is always written by the victor, except when it's written by the victim...

[bob lembke]

I'm from a 'Kara' as well! - Karamanoli, 'Black Michael.' And on the other side of the family, Kazantzis, 'Kazan' being, I believe, the Turkish word for an ironsmith. Our family dialect was full of Turkish (and Serbian, and probably Ladino) words, and the cuisine, of course... The Ottoman Empire was exceptionally stable by the standard of the times, exactly because of the Millet system, though it had begun to break down towards the end, of course, particularly as they began to give their Christian subjects more autonomy (being too weakened to suppress them). The fact that everyone was cheek-by-jowl is largely ignored these days, though, which is a shame, but of course we're talking about the Balkans, where history is always written by the victor, except when it's written by the victim...

Yes, I suspect that "kara" must have another meaning, not just "black", literally. Probably an honorific.

I've spent a lot of time in the Balkans, mostly "ex-Jugoslavija", about 20 months in total, working, having an apartment, touring about at the expense of the Department of State for three months, just doing tourism, working simultanously for Cornell University, the Department of State (having diplomatic status for about 10 days, but enough to get access to amazing bargains in the commisary of the Embassy in Beograd), and two different levels of Communist government, all at the same time. Being recruited by the KGB, the Jugoslav State Security Service (they tried for 15 years, sending a woman, then a man, and then several more women), and then the CIA, the latter I found out ten years later was because my father did and suggested me to his handler. Great fun, and the mix of people, wild history, languages, etc. was great fun. Of course it helped if you were in no danger and had powerful friends, and certainly not liable to get murdered in some dusty village in some brutal ethnic squabble. Probably 18-20 visits, from months to a few days.

My father loved the Turks, he felt that they were the "best" soldiers that he ever was involved with, with the exception of the two top German storm troop formations that he spent the rest of the war fighting in. Not in technical military skills, of course, but in spirit, and he fought in 3 1/2 years of the war, in the civil war in Berlin in 1919 in a Freikorps, and in occasional incidents against communists when in the Schwartze Reichswehr after the Freikorps. Also fought against the ANZACs at Gallipoli and the French (a lot) and the Brits (a bit) on the Western Front. So he saw a lot of different forces. But the Turks were really crazy, and he thought that they were great soldiers.

My Turkish dictionary gives two meanings for "kazan", 1. cauldron, and 2. boiler or furnace. As I said, the various minorities had a hammerlock on the various skilled trades as well as most commerce in the Turkish Empire. Perhaps your people were copper-smiths and/or cooking pot repairmen, good trades in the period. Quite probably also was the word for the metalworker as well as the metal objects he worked with.

Bob

[harribobs]

Yes, I suspect that "kara" must have another meaning, not just "black", literally. Probably an honorific.

quite possibly, Kara Fatma, in fact, took up arms during the second Balkan War in 1913 after her husband was killed in the First one, 1912.

[pipvh]

quite possibly, Kara Fatma, in fact, took up arms during the second Balkan War in 1913 after her husband was killed in the First one, 1912.

Do you have the whole story? I realize this might mean a different thread, though...

[harribobs]

pipvh

this story and other stories are coming out of Turkey is in bits and pieces, as information is being slowly released/discovered

i think it's really very funny to get the 'experts' immediately dismissing this stuff about female fighters, but i'm sure they know better than the turkish museums and archives!! hell i'll include an anecdote about my holidays if anyone wants as well, i've always preferred papousakia myself

anyway a new photo

she seems to be wearing medals

chris

[harribobs]

just got around to reading the reply from BOB, it's a bit long and off topic, but isn't Bob's wife fantastic!!!!

Especial interest on the German volunteer naval machine gunners at Gallipoli, which was covered in some detail.

i would love some more detail here, but about the volunteers, why they volunteered for service in Turkey, where they actually served, your wife's tee shirts just kidding about the last one

[bob lembke]

i think it's really very funny to get the 'experts' immediately dismissing this stuff about female fighters, but i'm sure they know better than the turkish museums and archives!! hell i'll include an anecdote about my holidays if anyone wants as well, i've always preferred papousakia myself

she seems to be wearing medals

chris

This thread is/was about the "urban legend" of the women (Turkish) snipers of Gallipoli. In that context the evidence for and against the idea that there were Turkish women snipers at Gallipoli was discussed at length and I think that it was generally felt that there was no good evidence for that, and many reasons why it was most unlikely.

Now you have found some evidence of some female Turkish irregulars fighting in the Balkan Wars, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. I have no doubt that some women on the many sides of the Balkan Wars participated in that soup of organized military campaigns, guerrilla warfare, and ethnic cleansing. It by no means proves or even casts any light on the question of whether or not the Turks employed women snipers at Gallipoli, which was an entirely different sort of military situation.

You seem to suggest that "turkish museums and archives" have provided you with evidence of Turkish women snipers or other combatants at Gallipoli. Would you care to share this evidence with us? On my last visit to Istanbul I shamelessly parleyed the fact that my father fought in the Turkish Fifth Army at Gallipoli into getting an interview with the Turkish colonel commanding the Military Library at the Askeri Mueze in Istanbul, and I was warmly received, but informed that I needed to obtain written permission from the Turkish General Staff in Ankara in order to use their collections. (The Turkish General Staff has a skyscraper office building next door to the Askeri Mueze, but they do not seem to have the authority to grant that permission.) However, I have a (non-Turkish) friend who has done a good deal of research in the Turkish archives, and has Modern Turkish. Perhaps you have hired a Turkish researcher, which I applaud, and have frequently urged GWF Pals to do.

Bob

[harribobs]

This thread is/was about the "urban legend" of the women (Turkish) snipers of Gallipoli. In that context the evidence for and against the idea that there were Turkish women snipers at Gallipoli was discussed at length and I think that it was generally felt that there was no good evidence for that, and many reasons why it was most unlikely.

Yes Bob it was.....

but since i've joined it you're told us about your wife, her teeshirts, she can speak languages that only she knows, your holidays, the people you met on your holidays, what they ate, the CIA recruiting you, your grandfather showing his weapon in cafes, you seem to be using the thread to impress me about how clever you are, and such a wit

but the truth is you haven't added anything other than that

i have told you where this is coming from and yes it is coming Turkish sources, not hired a friend

remember that hat you couldn't decide was turkish/ottoman?

who is this then>

[harribobs]

hint he's german.....

[Bryn]

I doubt that most people, 'expert' or not, would be so easily convinced of the presence of women snipers at Gallipoli just because of a single undated photo of an unnamed woman in an unnamed location. I totally fail to see how this is either evidence that women acted as snipers at Gallipoli, or a basis for sarcasm regarding better-informed opinions on the matter.

The medal in the photo appears to be the Liyakat Medal (Liyakat Madalyasi). "It was not strictly a military award, however, and could be awarded for general merit in society. In 1905 the statutes were amended to allow women to receive the medal for charitable work, service to mosques or schools, and other decidedly civilian merit. The medal could be inherited by the families of recipients, and heirs could even be allowed to wear the medal upon official approval." (http://www.turkishmedals.net/).

PS : Liman von Sanders. Any difficult ones?

[harribobs]

I doubt that most people, 'expert' or not, would be so easily convinced of the presence of women snipers at Gallipoli just because of a single undated photo of an unnamed woman in an unnamed location.

count the photos bryn, it's the same woman

Any difficult ones?

ask Bob..

[Bryn]

It may be the same woman, but what's the connection to women snipers at Gallipoli?

[pipvh]

Blimey, this thread seems to have kicked off a very Balkan conflict. If everyone can stop sniping at each other for a moment, can we agree that, given a strong - at least anecdotal - tradition of women combatants on all sides of the Balkan wars and the various Turkish conflicts that followed, that it isn't altogether out of the question that women might have been present at Gallipoli as irregulars? I don't think anyone's suggesting that haribobs believes Kara Fatma was said sniper.

As an aside, I think it used to be fairly common in war for one side to claim that the other was fielding women. This could either be to prove that the enemy was culturally inferior, desperate, or to infer some grudging nobility, depending on the circumstances.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't dissolve into rancour because I'm finding it completely fascinating. Thanks, everyone.

[Tom W.]

Sorry, Harribobs, I fancy myself a great wit

Bob

i think you may have spelt that wrong.

Absolutely golden.

[bob lembke]

I doubt that most people, 'expert' or not, would be so easily convinced of the presence of women snipers at Gallipoli just because of a single undated photo of an unnamed woman in an unnamed location. I totally fail to see how this is either evidence that women acted as snipers at Gallipoli, or a basis for sarcasm regarding better-informed opinions on the matter.

The medal in the photo appears to be the Liyakat Medal (Liyakat Madalyasi). "It was not strictly a military award, however, and could be awarded for general merit in society. In 1905 the statutes were amended to allow women to receive the medal for charitable work, service to mosques or schools, and other decidedly civilian merit. The medal could be inherited by the families of recipients, and heirs could even be allowed to wear the medal upon official approval." (http://www.turkishmedals.net/).

PS : Liman von Sanders. Any difficult ones?

The woman is also wearing the collar stars of an Austro-Hungarian Oberleutnant. (The collar stars of an Austro-Hungarian NCO would be, I believe, six-pointed and somewhat smaller.) Or, possibly, the Turkish Army adopted the same or a similar system of insignea, but I can't recall ever having seen such insignea in Turkish photos. In either case, we can assume that she was neither an Austro-Hungarian nor a Turkish officer. This suggests that we have to be careful of who she really is based on what bits of uniform or which medals she is wearing. Still, the photos Harribob have posted are quite interesting.

Byrn: I recall that you are interested in questions of access to the Turkish archives. I have a "western" friend who has been able to do considerable work in the Turkish archives. He has Modern Turkish, but cannot read Ottoman Turkish, I believe. He is not now resident in Turkey. If you are interested in this, you could PM me. (I think that I finally have cleared some space in my PM mailbox.)

Bob

[Bryn]

pipvh wrote, "... can we agree that, given a strong - at least anecdotal - tradition of women combatants on all sides of the Balkan wars and the various Turkish conflicts that followed, that it isn't altogether out of the question that women might have been present at Gallipoli as irregulars? "

No. What 'strong' anecdotal tradition are you referring to? I'm not concerned with what may or may not have possibly, maybe, happened somewhere else. This thread concerns the evidence, or lack thereof, for the presence of women snipers in the Ottoman army at Gallipoli. To use an analogy, the fact that Annie Oakley was handy with a gun does not prove there were women snipers in the US army shooting from the battlements of the Alamo. They're two completely different things.