andy1400 Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Sorry, do not know the enlistment date yet, but if I get it I will forward it on to you. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roy litchfield Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Hi Andrew, Don't know if this helps but I have 14/15 trio to 1742, Pte. Thomas Allwood (later 265178), also his TFEM & TEM both named to 4961129 Sjt. (WO CL 2,) 7th. Forresters. BW Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Hi Andrew Wasn't sure that arrival dates in battalion/regiment would be of use, but a read of the thread suggests they might be. The reason for no enlistment dates for the 70000s could well be that these were soldiers transferred into the regiment with previous army service. I know that the 73000 series were initially at least mainly transfers in from the S Staffs. 130 of them arrived at the 11th late July 1916, obviously as Somme replacements. Interested? If so, e-mail me with your e-mail address, and I'll reply attaching details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Andrew My grandfather 20050 Walter Stockdale, enlisted 24/11/1914 into the 10th Battlion. Discharged wounded on 18/07/1918 regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Andrew Some more 242496 Alfred Atkin 27/02/1913 8780 Edward Biddulph 21/09/1914 306717 Wilfred Coggin Att 04/12/1915, Mob 01/02/1916 13388 Edgar Cook 23/081914 15679 Harry Cuerton 07/09/1914 201072 Percy Dawes 07/11/1914 19732 Herbert Haskey 23/11/1914 18949 John Henry Hall 11/11/1914 16626 Henry Goucher 11/09/1914 22080 Frederick Lee 08/01/1915 7319 Michael Phillips 16/09/1914 4745 Theophelus Winterbottom 05/08/1914 all of the above are on the same page of the War Badge Rolls as my Grandfather, Walter Stockdale regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 29 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Geoff, Massively appreciated. I will add your list to mine. The date for your Grandfather is great, especially as I have the date for 20049 and 20058 who were also both in the 10th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 29 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Richard, I'll be in touch! Thanks for your comments on the 7**** series. I wasn't aware of that until I began this project and now it is becoming very clear that you are right. Most of the ones I have confirmed details for are men transferred from SF territorial battalions, particularly a large batch that seem to have come across in August 1916 following service in Ireland during the Easter Rising. This neatly explains why their original enlistment dates have no pattern at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 29 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Hi Andrew, Don't know if this helps but I have 14/15 trio to 1742, Pte. Thomas Allwood (later 265178), also his TFEM & TEM both named to 4961129 Sjt. (WO CL 2,) 7th. Forresters. BW Roy Thanks Roy. As Tesco say, every little helps. Sorry, do not know the enlistment date yet, but if I get it I will forward it on to you. Regards Andy Much obliged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Andrew This is a representative sample of 6th Battalion men - so it gives you an idea of how enlistment went in the Notts and Derbys Territorials, although I suspect that the City Battalions - 5th and 7th - were probably able to enlist more men faster (does that make sense?). I actually drew an 'enlistment date' graph not long ago - will try to dig out (its in excel) Number Name Date of enlistment 21 Alfred H Taylor Enlisted 1.4.08 111 William H Cherry Enlisted 2.4.08 202 Joseph Clarke Enlisted 5.4.08 401 James Waterhouse Enlisted 2.4.08 456 Henry Holland Enlisted 1.4.08 1134 John Ravey Enlisted 22.4.09 1306 Charles Gettliffe Enlisted 11.1.11 1451 Arthur Martin Enlisted 14.6.11 1524 James Shirt Enlisted 11.1.12 1732 George Greenhalgh Enlisted 11.9.12 1870 Samuel Furniss Enlisted 14.4.13 2038 Edmund Shatwell Enlisted 27.8.13 2121 Frank Pullen Enlisted 16.2.14 2250 William Graham Enlisted 15.8.14 2291 Frederick Geaves Enlisted 1.9.14 2596 Levi Bagshaw Enlisted 10.10.14 3074 William Brailsford Enlisted 21.10.14 3546 Victor Allsopp Enlisted 13.11.14 3639 Samuel Brailsford Enlisted 23.1.15 4158 William Whitton Enlisted 15.3.15 4448 William Knight Enlisted 2.8.15 4922 Barradell Enlisted 9.12.15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 29 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Mike. Thank you very much. That is an extremely useful list and I will incorporate it into my spreadsheet a.s.a.p. The pre-1917 4 digit territorial numbers are proving a bit of a pain to be honest, even with precsie enlistment dates, because unless it is certain which battalion they were with then, as the same number crops up in all four battalions (eight if you include the 2nd line), it creates confusion - so a bunch of cast-iron 6th's will help a lot. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 30 April , 2006 Share Posted 30 April , 2006 Andrew I couldn't agree with you more In one respect the Territorial numbering system is logical in that the first man to (re) enlisted in 1908 was given #1 and the numbering continued from then as men enlisted (until the beginning of 1917). There are of course a few gremlins but for the most part with a “number/enlistment date” framework you could guesstimate an enlistment date for any man in the Battalion. Problems arise because of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd line Battalions. As the 1st line moved to its War Station the recruitment was continued by the 2nd line and men were transferred to the 1st line (but not all of them). And then as the 2nd line moved overseas the 3rd line recruited men and sent them to the 1st and 2nd line as needed. It’s therefore not always possible to predict in which line Battalion a man was in (ie 1/# or 2/#). So in the list I’ve posted there will be a mixture of 1/6th and 2/6th (perhaps even the odd 21st Provisional Battn!) But also as you say because the same number was used by all four Battalions (the 1st and 2nd line in each battalion would have only used the number once). Here are a series of 7th Battn men (mixture of both 1/7th and 2/7th) 899 Harper Enlisted 3.3.09 1305 Clayton Enlisted 29.1.11 1475 Brierley Enlisted 8.1.12 1486 Gregory Enlisted 10.1.12 1512 Harper Enlisted 8.1.12 1890 Charlton Enlisted 3.9.13 1914 Bradbury Enlisted 10.11.13 2002 Beales Enlisted 1.12.14 2017 Buckley Enlisted 7.4.14 2038 Daft Enlisted 24.4.14 2077 Buck Enlisted 11.5.14 2083 Birkenhead Enlisted 11.5.14 2734 Bradford Enlisted 21.9.14 2775 Cheshire Enlisted 22.9.14 2857 Burton Enlisted 26.9.14 2930 Brierley Enlisted 1.10.14 3095 Allman Enlisted 16.10.14 3317 Buttery Enlisted 30.10.14 3387 Carroll Enlisted 3.11.14 3469 Greaves Enlisted 7.11.14 3601 Caborn Enlisted 7.12.14 3625 Dakin Enlisted 16.1.15 4866 Bailey Enlisted 21.6.15 5004 Atkins Enlisted 4.9.15 5135 Day Enlisted 9.10.15 5561 Chaplin Enlisted 4.2.16 5644 Booth Enlisted 9.2.16 6088 Cheese Attested 10.12.15 and Mobilised 22.6.16 6245 Barker Enlisted 12.11.14 6249 Austin Enlisted 20.10.1? 6995 Giddy Enlisted 9.10.16 also posted shorter version of this list in t'other thread thats running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 30 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2006 Cheers Mike, 'Tis indeed a tad irritating! Thanks for the 7th's. One of the reasons I'm doing this is to dsicover when my Great Uncle enlisted (Herbert Burman - see signature below). He was 2065 before being renumbered (despite being dead - he was one of the many declared as missing following Gommecourt) and we always believed that he had enlisted pre-war but weren't quite sure when. My info suggested c. April-May 1914 and magically your last post gives me a good 'straddle' of hits: 2038 Daft Enlisted 24.4.14 and 2077 Buck Enlisted 11.5.14. The gap narrows, fantastic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 30 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2006 Mike. Whilst adding your names above the following struck me: 6088 Cheese Attested 10.12.15 and Mobilised 22.6.16 Derby man? And, 6245 Barker Enlisted 12.11.14 Seems very out of sequence. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 30 April , 2006 Share Posted 30 April , 2006 Hi Andrew Yes Cheese is more than likely a Derby Man (came across a few from the 6/Foresters aswell) As for Barker he is out of sync and it could either be a mistake on the MIC or he was a Regular and later transferred to the 7/Foresters. A lot of the 1st and 2nd men have numbers in that range. I have to say that of all the SWB MICs that I have come across it is rare to see an out of sync number/date of enlistment. I hadn't realised that you didn't know Herbert Burman date of enlistment, for some reason I thought that you had his Army Service Records. I've had these 7th numbers/dates for a while and could have sent them earlier. They are all from SWB MICs I will try to see if I can narrow the gap a bit more for you but it's unlikely that I'll find another SWB between 2038 and 2077 Also I hadn't realised that he was posted missing (even though I've read the account from your web site several times). Was his body recovered in spring 1917? As you know we were at Gommecourt last week and I was explaining to my lad how there were several cemeteries in no-mans-land and the soldiers were buried there as they were found, before being moved to Gommecourt Wood Cemetery. Do you know whether Herbert Burman was buried in one of these and later moved? cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 30 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2006 Hi Mike, Yes I'm afraid I do lack some details. His service record is not extant and, apart from one of his sisters (my grandmother, who passed on his medals and only photograph to me), his memory was not upheld within the family and thus an awful lot was lost and forgotten. Nevertheless there is a family story that Herbert's mother swore that she saw Herbert on a picture in a local paper of the boys returning home (presumably in 1919). This sparked off a serious search which included the Vicar of Hucknall, where the family were living by 1919. The fact that he was renumbered in April 1917 indicates that he was still not officially dead at that stage. When his body was recovered and where is the next step of my research. I would have assumed that the recovery was in 1917 but the above story, if true, mitigates against that. I keep meaning to get onto the CWGC about it because Gommecourt New Wood is of course a concentration cemetery. In fact, I've been thinking of trying to get hold of information relating to all the cemeteries that were later concentrated as it may help create a different picture of what went on on 1st July 1916. But that's yet another project..... (Hope the trip went well!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 1 May , 2006 Share Posted 1 May , 2006 I was blissfully ignorant to significance of the 7**** numbers. However thanks to your comments I have looked over the 6th Battalion and can now see men transferred in from other Corps and given 73*** numbers, even though they had previously served with the 6/Foresters and had an original 4-digit number (I wonder why they were not given a new 24**** number?) But I’ve also noticed that a significant (50) number of men from the 2/6th were transferred to the 24th London Regt and given 73**** numbers so perhaps this was a standard procedure amongst all Territorial Battalions (?) Andrew, I have this list of 11th Battalion men. They don’t have an enlistment date but they all arrived in France between 21st and 29th August 1915 so are likely to be ‘original’ Kitchener men. 14588 Branston 14722 Fearn 15380 Hardy 15474 Birch 15575 Barker 15854 Hallam 15963 Harper 16145 Hall 16245 Hanxwell 16346 Hall 16493 Busby 16698 Chawner 16710 Gardner 16720 Ayres 16721 Cooke 16774 Davies 16792 Barrows 16795 Baker 16810 Barrows 16864 Cowley 16979 Brooks 17017 Frost 17341 Clownes 17349 Hart 17528 Eyre 17529 Burton 17534 Evans 17535 Clark 17594 Carrington 17607 Cunncliffe 17628 Belfitt 17680 Granger 17700 Brooks 17915 Booth 17954 Gorst It was a good trip thanks. I had not been at this time of the year before and it was quite different with the lack of crops the topography is a lot clearer. We spent a day at Gommecourt, mainly 'behind the front line' looking over the actions of March/April 1917 as the Foresters moved into Essarts. And then a day at the top of nab valley were the 11th went over (we always seem to end up at these places!) and then walked onto Thiepval through the Leipzig salient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 1 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2006 Mike, Thanks for your continued interest and help. Check your mailbox for a copy of the spreadsheet for the Regular and Service battalions as it currently stands. Cheers, Andrew CAN ANYONE ELSE ADD ANYTHING PLEASE? THIS IS GOING REALLY WELL AND I'M EXTREMELY GRATEFUL FOR EVERY BIT OF INPUT THUS FAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 1 May , 2006 Share Posted 1 May , 2006 Regarding the 7**** numbers, I've seen a similar pattern in the Northamptonshires with numbers 4**** (the difference probably being caused by the relative size of the Regiments). A large batch of 500+ men transferred from various Regiments (a lot from the Bedfordshires) to New Army battalions around July 1916. In discussion with other Forum members it was surmised that these men had trained in England with other Regiments, embarked to France and then been almost immediately transferred. The first casualties from these men occured around September 1916, and there was a large draft into the 6th battalion of 300 men on 18th July 1916. Although unconfirmed I suspect it was the 4**** men. I believe that "standard" numbering had reached around 25000 by that point in the rest of the Regiment. The Northamptons detail is obviously irrelevant to your study, but it does seem to suggest that the practice was applied across more than one Regiment and apparently in the same timescale. Hope this helps, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 1 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2006 Thanks Steve - I think there must have been something wider going on as we are working on a similar time period, i.e mid-late 1916. I've also noticed a large number of men from the Notts & Derbys 2nd line TF battalions who transferred to the 1st line in August 1916 following service in the Easter Rising. I wonder if this can be attributable to the Somme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 1 May , 2006 Share Posted 1 May , 2006 There was definately lots of movement within the 6/Foresters during 1916 and I assume that many of the men were from the 2/6th and most likely would have been in Dublin. You will notice that by December men were being taken from other Battalions of the 139th Brigade - I wonder if these were men wounded during the summer and released from Hospital ?? Draft to the 1/6th during 1916 March 16th 142 OR 31st 122 OR May 14th 2/Lt Simpson 27th 42 OR June 6th 72 OR arrived from base 6th 2/Lt C.H.C. Cousins and F.R. Oliver 9th 2/Lt J.L. Robinson 11th 2/Lts W.G. Wood, W.T. Strephens & A.E. Sylvester 26th 2.Lt E. Kershaw 28th 2/Lts L.N. Johnson & A.J. Cooke July 2nd 2/Lt W.L. Cooper, 2/Lt F.S. Rowland and 54 OR 4th 8 OR 12th 2/Lt Jones & 8 OR 16th 2/Lt B.N. Parker 18th Capts C.V.N.C. Blackwall and E.S. Wood, 2/Lts R. Evans, V.H. Armitage, C.L. Croucher, W.B. Davies & A.P. Stoner 30th 59 OR August 2nd 2/Lt A.L. Dent & 2/Lt R.F. Briggs 28th 11 Signalers & 15 Lewis Gunners September 16th 22 OR 27th Lieut G. Glossop & 10 OR from base October 22nd 2/Lt J.G.J. Hutton & 4 OR December 24th 40 OR from base (25 from 7th and 15 from 8th Sherwood Foresters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dot Posted 1 May , 2006 Share Posted 1 May , 2006 Hi Ive just found this web site today as we are trying to find out some information for my mother in law regarding her father who was in the great war. We dont have very much info and unsure of where to go ect. His name seems to have shown up in one of your posts. under the 6th battalion - 3074 William Brailsford. Enlisted 21.10.14. We are not sure if this is him ( we are awaiting mum to dig out his discharge papers). We do have a photo of him with several other soldiers in a hospital with the name PERCY HOUSE stamped on the photo. We have tried to find the location of percy house but to no avail ( but still seeking). We know he had a neck and throat injury and the photo is approx 1916. Any suggestions as to what and where we go from here?. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 2 May , 2006 Share Posted 2 May , 2006 Hello You might want to look at the following web-site to find out about William H Brailsford http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~b...c/claycross.htm 3074 William H Brailsford Enlisted in 21.10.14; arrived in France some time in 1916 and was k/a 5.11.17 during a raid on the German trenches at Hill 70 near Verquin Hope that helps a bit cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 2 May , 2006 Share Posted 2 May , 2006 Andrew, hope you don't mind me butting in, but I'd like to ask Mike the source of his 11th numbers please. Only around three of them are mentioned in the war diary in the period after the Somme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 2 May , 2006 Share Posted 2 May , 2006 Hello Richard Thats an easy one. They are all from medal index cards in which the 11th Battalion is ascribed to the man for example:- I can send you the other 60 odd MICs for the 11th Battn men if they are of any interest cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 2 May , 2006 Share Posted 2 May , 2006 Before dot runs too far with this William Brailsford, I see she mentions discharge papers, which probably means that her relative survived the war and would probably not be this man? These two (including the one above) were killed: Medal card of Brailsford, William H Corps Regiment No Rank Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 3074 Private Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 240880 Private Medal card of Brailsford, William Corps Regiment No Rank Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 96009 Private whilst I think these two survived: Medal card of Brailsford, William Corps Regiment No Rank Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 7th Reserve Battalion 20611 Private Medal card of Brailsford, William H Corps Regiment No Rank Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 19765 Private Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 19765 Private These last two strike me as likely candidates for a late 1914 enlistment. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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