Headstones On British Cemeteries

[AOK4]

Hello,

Could anyone tell me why some headstones on British Cemeteries aren't made from the usual Portlandstone, but from some kind of marble-like stone?

Greetings from Flanders,

Jan

[Marco]

Hello Jan,

The marble is the replacement for portland stone which is rather soft and weathers more easily than the marble. If a portland stone needs replacing a marble one is placed.

Marco

[AOK4]

Thanks for the answer!

So in a few years time, all the headstones will be made of Botticini-stone (I heard this name somewhere, don't know if it's correct though) instead of Portland-stone?

Jan

[Terry Denham]

The correct name for the new stone is Botticino - a type of limestone although it does look like marble. It comes from Italy.

Incidentaly, not all CWGC headstones are made from Portland stone either. In Scotland they are often made of grey granite with black-highlighted lettering and in Wales they are sometimes made of grey slate - but the design is the same.

In some cemeteries in France they are made of red Portland stone and in Littlehampton, West Sussex there are some made of green Portland! Also, the markers in Turkey and the Far East are entirely different being of the 'Dutch Stool' type

[Bob Coulson]

May be wrong but I think I remember reading of replacement headstones being made from Italian Carrera stone.

Not certain of this, maybe some one can help.?

[Terry Denham]

Bob

Carrera is a type of marble.

The new headstones are made of Botticino Limestone.

[Guest jbd]

How many differerent shapes of headstone are there in IWGC/CWGC cemeteries in addition to the UK/Commonwealth standard shape?

In Bayeux CWGC I noted the usual "clipped corner" non combatant stone together with different shapes for France (a standard French Cross, presumably supplied by the French) Poland, Germany, Russia, Czechoslovakia and Italy.

The non-combatant pattern and the Russian looked identical although I would needed to have measured the dimensions of the clipped corner to be certain.

At Bayeux the non combatant was used for a Merchant Seaman but was identical to those used for Army, CWGC gardeners and civilian entitled. The RAF have a different pattern for their non combatants. I wonder why?

An article in "Stand To" some 3 years ago described a USA Army soldier being left behind in a IWGC Cemetery after The Great War. This could only have been at the request of his parents who presumably chose not to have him disinterred for repration to the USA or to an ABMC cemetery. Does anyone know where this is (The Somme I think) and I presume that a standard US marble cross is used?

Barrie Dobson

[Chris_Baker]

Barrie (and I know that is your real name),

I know of some (2 or 3?) US soldiers buried in Lijssenthoek cemetery near Poperinge. From memory I think they have British CGWC stones, although I may be wrong there.

Cheers

Chris

[Alan Lines]

The U.S soldiers buried in Lijssenthoek don't have the usual crosses. As I remember their headstones are very similar to the Commonwealth ones but have a much smaller cross carved into the stone.

[Paul Reed]

They have 'US pattern' CWGC headstones and there are 3 of them in Lijjessenthoek. At least one of them has a brother in there who died with the Canadians, which is why the next of kin asked for him to remian there.

There are a few others here and there as well; there is a US pilot attached RAF buried in Regina Trench, for example.

[Marco]

Below the grave of: Urquhart, D. Sgt. 104th Infantry

in Pereusse Chat. Anglo-French cemetery

http://www.igr.nl/users/vandenheuvel/cemet...EUSECHATFNC.htm

Not a private memorial because there is a Frenchmen who has the same stone.

Marco

[Terry Denham]

Barrie (what's your real name?)

The clipped corner CWGC headstones are known as 'Non-World War' Pattern.

They are used for burials of servicemen/women who do not qualify for war-grave status - ie. those casualties who died outside the qualifying period (04.08.14 to 31.08.21 for WW1 or 03.09.39 to 31.12.47 for WW2). They are not 'Non-Combatant' headstones.

They could also be members of 'Recognised Civilian Organisations' who did not meet the additional qualifications required of these groups to qualify for war-grave status (ie they had to die whilst on duty and of a cause attributable to the war or the increased threat caused by the war - unlike service personnel who just had to die!).

In your example of a merchant seaman, it means that he died without qualifying for war grave status - either because he was outside the dates or his death was due to a non-war cause. A merchant seaman killed by a mine explosion within the dates would have a standard CWGC headstone but one dying in a normal shipwreck or of illness also within the dates would have the clipped version (although these were not brought into general use until after WW2 - other 'Non-World War' patterns were in use previously).

They were also used for certain totally civilian burials ie - CWGC staff. Contrary to all the the rules, Sir Fabian Ware, founder of CWGC, has a standard pattern Commission headstone - but surely he deserves it!

These 'Recognised Civilian Organisations' are a fascinating group which I have studied for some time - the largest organisation in the group being the Merchant Navy. If anyone is interested, I can supply a list of these groups if you email me.

This pattern headstone is still in use for military burials and for old soldiers' burials and they can be seen in many cemeteries in the UK. Also the Admiralty has a different style headstone which it has used for burials over the years in its own (and some other) cemeteries. These have a triple scallop to the top and can be used for both war graves and non-war graves - complicated isn't it?

The whole subject of headstone patterns and qualification for war grave status would fill a book by itself - I know - I have been studying it for years!!!!

The varied patterns of headstone for each different nationality are set by each country but are maintained by CWGC when they occur in their cemeteries or in the UK. CWGC look after war graves from 25 non-Commonwealth countries (both wars). Here in Sussex we have the only WW1 Brazilian war grave in the world and that is very distinctive! (a naval pilot under training with the RAF - Yes, Brazil did participate in WW1).

[Guest jbd]

"An article in "Stand To" some 3 years ago described a USA Army soldier being left behind in a IWGC Cemetery after The Great War. This could only have been at the request of his parents who presumably chose not to have him disinterred for repatriation to the USA or to an ABMC cemetery. Does anyone know where this is  (The Somme I think) and I presume that a standard US marble cross is used?"

I have now found my notes on the subject. The US soldier is Lt. Kenneth Gow DSC. He is buried at St. Souplet British Cemetery near Le Cateau. My notes do not say what kind of headstone is used. I have not been to the cemetery and do not know. However judging by Paul Reed's comments it is probably a US pattern CWGC stone rather than a marble latin cross used by the ABMC.

The article does say that Lt. Gow was originally buried alongside Cpt. Clinton Fisk (US Army). Cpt. Fisk was later transferred to the AMBC Cemetery at Bony (Somme).

At Bayeux the Merchant Seaman with the non war grave stone is actually buried alongside a Merchant Seaman with a war grave stone. The rules are explained in one of the two books about the CWGC "Courage Remembered" or "The unending vigil"

Just where is Sir Fabien Ware buried?

Barrie Dobson (my real name is John Barrie Dobson but my typing isn't good enough to write it frequently!)

[Terry Denham]

Sir Fabian Ware is buried in Holy Trinity Church Graveyard at Amberley, Gloucestershire

[Guest jbd]

In my last posting I stated:-

"The US soldier is Lt. Kenneth Gow DSC. He is buried at St. Souplet CWGC Cemetery near Le Cateau."

However he does not show up on the CWGC database! I presume that he is in the cemetery register, probably at the back under "Other nationalities"

I must admit that I thought the CWGC database had details from all the graves and memorials in their care rather than just those of UK and Commonwealth dead.

Not unsurprisingly, he is not shown on the ABMC database. I wonder therefore how a US enquirer would ever find where he is buried?

Barrie Dobson

[Terry Denham]

I believe that CWGC are considering how they can make information on foreign and non-world war burials in their care available to the public now that they no longer publish registers (although this information had only been included in the very latest editions).

[Hedley Malloch]

Terry,

Do the CWGC have any patent or copyright on headstone design? I ask because I once saw the grave of a senior army officer in the churchyard of a village in North Yorkshire. It had a headstone which looked very like one of the standard CWGC types; nearly the same size, shape, lettering-font and material. Closer inspection revealed that it was not - there was something missing, I think his regimental insignia, and it varied in one or two other details. But it had the look and feel of a CWGC headstone.

My conclusion was that while the deceased did not qualify for war grave treatment, nevertheless his family wanted to commemorate his military connections and had a near-copy of a CWGC headstone privately erected.

Regards

Hedley

[Guest jbd]

It is my understanding that the CWGC does have copyright on the design and size of the headstones used by them.

Until a couple of years ago, I used to do a lot of country walking and invariably these pased near to village churchyards. I developed an unerring eye for spotting CWGC stones and frequently found myself explaining to fellow walkers and locals what the significance was. I have seen "near copies" in several areas, particularly the Cotswolds. It is difficult to believe that the CWGC would know, let alone enforce action, against the isolated stone that was exactly the same in shape and dimensions. I can only assume that stonemasons must be aware of the copyright aspects.

Another poser (Terry, where are you?). I believe that the CWGC pays the local church a small annual sum for the upkeep of the stone/grave. Can anyone validate this?

The treatment of UK based war graves in civilian cemetries comes under different rules to the civilian graves. In Manchester, a graveyard is being "redeveloped" as a car park. Unless relatives pay for exhumation and re-interrment elsewhere, the bodies will be "buried" in a mass grave (Shades of Belsen and Auschwitz!!!) However the 30 or so CWGC graves will be individually exhumed and buried elsewhere at the expense of the City Council.

Barrie Dobson

[Guest jbd]

Terry,

Your comment that the CWGC have only recently started including details of foreign nationals in cemetery registers explains a mystery to me.

I visit Normandy 3 or 4 times annually and have done so for many years. I invariably spend at least a few minutes in Bayeux CWGC and have certainly seen the non war pattern headstone used for some of the MN casualties. I have never been able to find details in the register until earlier this month when I came across them for the first time

The last time I looked for them was probably four or five years ago and until your comment I had simply assumed that I had not been looking in the right place. Thanks

Barrie Dobson

[Simon_Fielding]

This would also explain the headstones of some Polish WW2 aircrew buried in a nearby village churchyard here in Cowley, Gloucestershire. They are very much CWGC 'style' but don't show up on the register at all.

Simon

[Greenwoodman]

If CWGC pays local churchs/cemeteries a sum for the upkeep of graves, then my percetion is that its not being spent in the right direction. Having visited a number of local (to Cheshire, inc Greater Manch and Stoke) CWGC burials in connection with my research, it seems that CWGC stones are subject to the same neglect as civilian. Is there not now a scheme to have these stones locally "adopted"?

Richard Howells

[Guest jbd]

Richard,

I did not say that the money was being used to maintain CWGC headstones, simply that I thought it was being paid for the purpose.

There is infact an organisation called "War Graves in Britain" which is run by Kim Taylforth and John Oliver. Their website is

http//wargraves.freeyellow.com/home.html

If that does not work, try the link off www.cwgc.org.

Barrie Dobson

[Guest jbd]

On page 28 of Bulletin No. 64 (received by me today) Paul Rason gives an update on the above organisation.

He gives the url of their website as www.wargraves.info

I have not tried this address but coming from a Trustee it will obviously be correct

Barrie Dobson

[Guest Hill 60]

Barrie is right about the URL address.

I've dealt with Kim and her partner in the past, I managed to get them some 'air-time' on BBC 3 Counties Radio where they give regular updates on their work. Kim, sister of Gillian of 'Eastenders' fame, is very friendly and will be very grateful for any info on CWGC graves that require attention.

Lee

[Guest jbd]

Another site that may be useful to those of us who have an interest in this subject is that of The Friends of War Memorials(www.war-memorials.com)

From my recollection a decision was taken early in the life of this organisation that CWGC stones would not be recorded as war memorials because they are already recorded by the CWGC (as we have seen above, recorded, yes, but not always with published details.)

However there are are many "memorial" stones in churchyards. These have an inscription on an extant gravestone to a relative- often a son- who has died whilst overseas on military service. Whilst usually relating to The Great War, there are those that relate to WWII. I recently found one in the churchyard of a hamlet less than a mile from my home. As soon as I can get back with my camera, I will send details off to the FWM.

You have to be very keen or very lucky to find them. The churchyard to which I refer, Salwarpe in Worcestershire, does not contain any CWGC stones and I must have passed the memorial stone and ignored it many times. I happened to spot it because I bent down to tie my shoe lace whilst in front of it.

Unfortunately, the memorials database (over 60,000 entries) is not yet on line so it is a question of mailing or phoning to ascertain if a memorial is already recorded. I do not know but presume that anyone interested could be also be advised of memorials in any given locality.

Barrie Dobson