"Battalion Diaries"

[Tom Morgan]

Can any of the PRO experts tell me if there was a significant event - such as the day the unit left the UK - when the War Diary had to be started? I've often wondered about this and now it's become an important issue of some research I'm doing.

I'd be grateful for any explanations.

Tom

[Bob Coulson]

Tom,

Personally haven't got a clue but its an interesting question, look forward to the replies.

Bob.

[John_Hartley]

Tom

First date in 17th Mancs (surprise, surprise) is day the advance party left for France (7/11/15)

John

[Paul Reed]

In theory War Diaries were only kept from the moment the unit went On Active Service in a theatre of war, so most start with the day the unit landed or was formed, if that formation took place overseas i.e. in the case of most MGC companies. Occasionally they begin a few days before the unit goes over, but usually not much more than that.

There are also some diaries for Home Service only units in WO95 - quite why they would need to keep war diaries is beyond me.

[Guest Hill 60]

The battalions of Royal Berkshire Regt have, obviously, various starting dates for their diaries.

1st Bn: 4th Aug 1914

2nd Bn: 22 Oct 1914

1/4th Bn: 30 March 1915

5th Bn: 30 May 1915

6th Bn: 24 July 1915

7th Bn: 19 Sept 1915

8th Bn: 7 Aug 1915

10th (Labour) Bn: 9 May 1915

2/4th Bn: 25 May 1916

The 1st Bn's first entry states:

5.30pm Orders received to mobilize

The 2nd Bn's first entry:

Arrived at LIVERPOOL in HT "DONGOLA."

The 10th Bn's first entry:

10th Labour Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment, mobilised at Cambridge Barracks, and formed from the personnel, fit for service of the following Labour Companies, there assembled. The travelling Medical Board classified those brought before it as follows:-

No2 Lab Co WILTS Regt from Hilsea ] For discharge 96

3 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ COVENTRY ] Class A 154

9 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ FOVANT ] ~ 4 AA 866 (fit for service)

10 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ HILSEA ]

]

2 ~ ~ Royal BERKS Regt from Portsmouth ] Total classified 1116

3 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ] The men class A, were

6 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ] transferred: and those for

8 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ] discharge, discharged, the

9 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ] preparation of the documents

for the latter (including reference to the Regimental Paymaster, by the hastily improvised Orderly Room and Company Staffs, somewhat inspected the organisation of the Battalion for service, and the assembly of the Details, not previously classified, congested the barrack accomodation (more especially as to meals), and all passed fit had to be vaccinated and inoculated, a large number of men had to be isolated o/a measles, subject to the foregoing Drill/Squad/was postponed (with some route marching later)

The 2/4th Bn's entry:

Battn as in appendix (A) marched out of PARKHOUSE CAMP, SALISBURY, in 2 parties and entrained at TIDWORTH at 2.20pm and 3.40pm for SOUTHAMPTON.

Battn (Less 6 officers, 192 OR and Transport) embarked for HAVRE arriving 4.am 26.5.16 (6 officers, 192 OR remained SOUTHAMPTON to load transport).

Appendix (A).

Marching Out State 25.5.16

Officers 35

Others 850

Lewis Guns 4

Horses 64

Two Wheel Vehicles 4

4 Wheel 17

In Hospital 30

Left Behind 2

Absent 3

Nominal Roll of Officers Proceeding Overseas

Lt Col 2nd Lieutenants

M Wheeler Skene J H

Brooke C E

Majors Lambert E O C

Webb G B R

Simmonds J H Gale H J

Brooke G A

Captains Worlock G L

Cecil C

Anderson I M M Abbott G S

Whittaker R Gibson R R

Cave C J D Heathorne A T

Lucas E P Hutchings D A

Hadden F L Baker D C

Palmer A L Bowles R D H

Reeves J A Aylett E C

Hawkes G H

Lieutenants

Dowson O J Adjutant Lieut J W Dilke

Freeth R V C QM Lieut W H Morris

Davis G W MO Lieut J H Deacon

Imray R G

Holland R

As you can see, some battalions had a lot to say in their first entry, while others were one-liners.

[CROONAERT]

How many diaries start with the first entry "At Sea"?

A lot of those that I've seen start with this on the date that the unit left British shores.

Dave.

[Guest Pete Wood]

There are also some diaries for Home Service only units in WO95 - quite why they would need to keep war diaries is beyond me.

Well I can see why the searchlight guys, and gunners would feel justified in keeping a war diary. They were trying to bring down some of those Zeppelins, Gothas and Giants.

[Paul Reed]

I would agree, but it isn't these units, or similar types, which kept War Diaries for service in the UK!

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Tom - most units seem to have begun their war diaries at the time of embarkation or a couple of days before. Some units began theirs when orders to proceed abroad were received, which might have been up to a couple of weeks before the departure date (but usually less than that), and some units, particularly during 1914, do not seem to have started diaries until they were in the Lines of Communication or about to engage. Having said that, I have seen battalion diaries which begin during training in the UK, two or three month before departure.

The rarest diaries are those for home service units, but I don’t know whether that was because most HS units didn’t maintain a “War Diary” as such(*) or simply because the War Office retention rate for HS diaries, post war, was very low. (* "Normal" historical regimental record keeping, including military operations engaged in and other detail which you would consider to be “war diary” subject matter, is fairly well defined in King's Regulations - para 1931 etc, but it doesn’t include specifics about exactly when anything should be done - wording is very general).

Many early 1914 war diaries are written on tear-out pages of standard notepads, though Army Form C.2118 "War Diary or Intelligence Summary (Erase heading not required)" was in existence during the early stages of the war - I have one in front of me for a unit receiving embarkation orders 4/10/14 and the printer's document code line includes "8/14" (Aug 1914) and what is maybe an order quantity of 100,000 sheets. This particular diary begins with ….. "At 5pm orders were received to march to Southampton." - very typical.

It is worth remembering, when talking about what unit diaries now exist and which don’t, that the main reason why WW1 war diaries were retained was for the benefit of the Historical Section of The Committee of Imperial Defence - JE Edmonds and his mates compiling the Official Histories - that's why the diaries of so many (take this the right way) "mundane" units are not in class WO95 at the NA - they were simply dumped.

Regards - Tom

[Tom Morgan]

Thanks to all for your explanations. The gathered wisdom on the subject is going to be very helpful indeed.

Tom

[Max]

Tom

The 3/KOYLI "War Diary" starts before war had been declared. The first entry is:

"3rd August, 1914

At 1.05.p.m. a telegram was received ordering the Battalion to strike camp* and to return from Strensall to Pontefract.

The Battalion marched out of camp at 6.30.p.m. arriving at Pontefract at 12.m.n.. It was accomodated in barracks."

* The 3rd Bn were taking part in their annual camp.

Andy

[Ciaran Byrne]

The War Diary for the 5th Royal Irish Lancers is as follows:

1914

Marlborough Barracks: Dublin

August

5th: First day of mobilisation

6th 2nd, Proceeded without delay

7th 3rd Day of Mobilisation 124 Horses arrived

8th 4th Day of Mobilization 69 draught horses arrived + 137 reservists

9th 5th Day of mobilisation All mobilisation equipment now drawn

10th 6th Day Mobilisation Complete

11th 7th Day. Rgt Paraded Mobilisation completed

12th + 13th Regt. Parade fully mobilised and ready for practice

14th Final preparations for embarkation tomorrow

15th Rgt. Embarked from North Wall Dublin, in the S.S. Kingstonian sailing at 6.30pm. Embarkation effected without casualties.

16th At Sea

Being part of the first wave of British troops into France this would I imagine be similar for most BEF regiments.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Andy - HQ Highland Territorial Division at Perth recieved their "Warning Order" telegram from the War Office at 4:30 pm on July 29th 1914 - it simply states "PRESS GANG".

Div HQ then sent telegrams to Regimental HQ's and recieved their first reply at 10:50 pm that night, from 1/4th QOCH's at Inverness (my grandfathers battalion).

"PRESS GANG" wasnt actually an order to mobilise, but was an order to expect and prepare for orders which might require most urgent action, - there can have been little doubt at the time as to what those orders would be.

HQ Perth received an order by telegram at 5:35 pm on August 4th - "MOBILISE" - that had been forwarded to HQ's 4th Seaforths, 4th & 6th Gordons, 4th QOCH, 7th & 9th A&S Highlanders, 1st Highland Field Ambulance, 4th Highland Mountain Artillery Bde, and 2nd Highland Field Coy RE by 5:50 pm, and the first reply was rec'd at Perth at 7 pm - 4th QOCH, again.

I would imagine that these orders to TF units would have lagged behind orders to Regular units and Reservists.

Regards - Tom

[Roy Evans]

Tom,

2nd South Staffords diary begins

4th August: Officer Commanding (Lieut. Col. C.S. Davidson) receives orders to mobilize.

6th August: Completed Mobilization.

7th to 11th August: Awaiting Orders.

Roy

[Max]

HQ Highland Territorial Division at Perth recieved their "Warning Order" telegram from the War Office at 4:30 pm on July 29th 1914 - it simply states "PRESS GANG".

Tom

Would this be because of the extra distance that Scottish units would have to travel for embarkation?

Andy

[Charles Fair]

Tom

We had a related discussion on this subject a while ago - here is the thread:Home Service War Diaries

regards

Charles

[Paul Reed]

It is worth remembering, when talking about what unit diaries now exist and which don’t, that the main reason why WW1 war diaries were retained was for the benefit of the Historical Section of The Committee of Imperial Defence - JE Edmonds and his mates compiling the Official Histories - that's why the diaries of so many (take this the right way) "mundane" units are not in class WO95 at the NA - they were simply dumped.

Would be interested to read what written evidence you have for the HS junking records.

I presume by 'mundane units' you mean Labour Corps etc? You may be aware that under an ACI in 1917 all 'labour units' were instructed that they need not keep a war diary. This, perhaps, is more logical reason why such documents do not exist.

[Peter Beckett]

Paul,

I know this is getting away from what Tom M asked, but if there were injuries or deaths by those serving in Labour Corps while at the front how were they recorded?

Also how were they allocated their tasks? Was it written down or verbal?

In other words, how much can you track the activities of the Labour Corps?

Peter

[jhill]

Sometimes one can get lucky with unit War Diaries.

I have just checked the Diary of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Works Battalion

(formerly 4th Labour Battalion) . (It was easy to check because it is on the

internet). A transcription of a couple of days goes like this:

"Chateau des Trois Tours Sheet-28-B28.CENT.

3 9/17 6 Officers 578 O.R. Broad gauge Rly as 2-9-17

Left Camp 4:45 am, returned 2:30 pm.

Saskatchewan Election opened.

4 9/17 100982 PTE COOPER-F. wounded 2-10-17- died 3-10-17-

Buried DOSINGHEM CEMETARY (SHEET 27-F11 a 5.7)

730794 PTE KELLIHER-J.J. wounded 2-10-17 died 2-10-17

Buried DOSINGHEM CEMETARY

8 Officers & 599 O.R. working party on Broad Gauge Rly as 3-9-17

Rather heavy shelling - 9 O.R. wounded. "

Of course, not all casualties would be listed.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Would this be because of the extra distance that Scottish units would have to travel for embarkation?

Andy - in the example which I gave the units were all Highland Territorial and werent immediately destined for overseas service - but having said that, the mobilisation was amazingly fast.

1/4th QOCH for example, still operating the old eight Company scheme (for "geographical reasons") had received their mobilisation orders at Cameron Barracks, Inverness, just before 6 pm on August 4th. About the same time the Police (and, peculiar to Scotland, the Overseers to the poor), through their own communication system, were ordered to post up Army Form E.634 which notified the embodiment of the TF.

Officers and Men of what was to become my grandfather's Company, "F", at Kingussie, 30 miles south of Inverness, assembled at Kingussie drill hall during the evening of the 4th and morning of the 5th, and by midday on the 5th had been kitted and armed and marched to Kingussie station to entrain for Inverness. Five of the eight Companies made it to Inverness on the 5th and were immediately sent on to Cromarty to defend the coast against invasion.

I'm afraid that I dont know what % of the strength of the various companies managed this mobilisation on the 5th, but still not bad going for saturday night soldiers.

The Battalion suffered it's first war casualty just after arriving at Cromarty - can I claim this as the first TF casualty of WW1 ? (genuine - it's in the Regimental Journal - though it's a far from common "wound" !).

regards - Tom

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

In other words, how much can you track the activities of the Labour Corps?

Peter,

Ivor Lee is the man with the answer to this question. However I found references to the activities of Labour Units in for example the Diary of the 88th Wing IAF

There are some diaries for Labour Units such as Infantry Labour Battalions - check the PROCAT on the web by typing in Labour under WO95, hardly unrepresentative I'll admit.

Cheers - Ian

[Muerrisch]

2RWF started their diary on the official form at 9PM 4 August 1914, and continued up until 30 April 1919.

3RWF [special Reserve] did not have a War Diary, but kept a log/ diary/ scrapbook which is an invaluable source.

[Guest A Mafia Man]

Just catching up on the threads, & saw this one.

The Diaries for the Royal Berkshire Regt & Wiltshire Regt are available on-line.

These may throw a few glimmers of light onto the question.

Follow this link. http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/main.php3

Regards

Joe

[Guest Hill 60]

Joe - This is a great facility, especially as I have recently 'got' into the Royal Berkshire's contribution to the war.

I particularly like the last comment in this entry:

1st Royal Berkshire

Thursday 6th August 1914

Aldershot

England

2nd day of mobilization. 297 Reservists Depot arrived 12.20pm. All horses except 8 received by 12 noon. 141 reservists from Depot 9.15 pm. 8 horses received & complete. Progress normal as per scheme. Absolute breakdown of Board of Trade civilian assistant.

I have mentioned this comment (and site) previously, and before anyone jumps down my throat (as did someone via e-mail the last time) I am not making fun of or ridiculing the poor man. It just brings home the immense task facing the authorities when Britain mobilized for war.

[Guest A Mafia Man]

Hi Lee

I agree with you that this is a great service to provide for the many that wish to look up history.

I have a particular interest in this web-site as my paternal Grandfather served in the 6th Bn R Berkshires from it's raising until he was wounded on the 31st July 1917 when he won his MM. Whilst he was in hospital in Tipperary he was posted, along with many others, to the Kings Liverpool Regt when they broke up the 6th Bn. (Contrary to popular belief not all the men were posted to other Berkshire Bn's.)

However this availability of War Diaries is unfortunately not copied by many of the other Regimental Museums on cost grounds I assume. (It would be no good asking the Lottery Fund for asistance either, they would not help the likes of the Dunkirk Assoc, etc, so a museum dedicated to men who fought for their country in other conflicts throughout the world wouldn't stand a chance of any funding !! )(Rant over).

Perhaps we could launch a campaign to have every War Diary published on the web by the year 2007 ! Three years to get it sorted out should be enough do you think ?

Cheers for now

Joe