Royal Marines in WW1

[PhilB]

The Army Lists from WW1 include officers of the Royal Marines and RMLI. Soldiers Died in the Great War doesn`t include them and nor does Brig James British Regiments 1914-18. Were they Army or not? Phil B

[Old Tom]

Hello,

The Royal Marines, now, are not part of the army. I would be surprised if this was not the case in 1914.

Old Tom

[PhilB]

Why would they be in the Army List then, Old Tom? Phil B

[bobbluesboy]

The RM units on ships and Naval Bases were strictly under control of the Navy.However the RM units which were part of the 63rd Division Royal Naval Division came under Army control once in France from June 1916 which did not go down too well. Bob.

[PhilB]

But they`re in the 1914 & 15 Army Lists! Phil B

[Jonathan Saunders]

I think there also in the Navy List - certainly in the Naval Whos's Who for 1917.

[Greg Bloomfield]

In layman's terms, the Royal Marines are naval soldiers. When they became deployed to the WF they would automatically come under Army control and fit into whatever grand plans their (army) corps commander had for them as part of his overall operational plan. They were far too small an organisation to act independently.

The same thing happens today. The Corps fits in with the army's roulmont plans for such places as Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan while still coming under Admiralty control.

Can't comment on why Bootneck officers were on the Army List though.

Greg

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The Army Lists from WW1 include officers of the Royal Marines and RMLI.

As Britain’s Sea Soldiers, the Royal Marines were under the authority of the Admiralty, but they served both ashore and afloat. Defrance to the army was not automatic, they could serve with naval personnel (nineteenth century naval brigades, the early RND was an extention of that idea), with the army (WWI the Royal Marine Artillery Howitzer Brigade) and independently (3rd RM Battalion).

That meant that their officers appeared in both the Army and Navy Lists so that seniority could be identified by both services, but for administrative purposes (including Soldiers Who Died) they were still mostlty handled by the Admiralty.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

They were far too small an organisation to act independently.

In 1914 the Royal Marines contributed a brigade to the Royal Naval Division and according to Fevyer & Wilson's ‘The 1914 Star to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines’ the numbers eligible for the 1914 Star were:

Chatham 1,256

Deal 196

Plymouth 790

Portsmouth 1,037

RMA 1,026

Plus on a quick tally, I’ve spotted about 450 in other units like the RNAS and Armoured Cars, hardly a small organisation!

The Black Watch, Coldstream Guards, Middlesex, Rifle Brigade and Worcester Regiment deployed 3 battalions, other regiments 1 or 2 (except the London).

Blumberg in ‘Britain’s Sea Soldiers 1914-1919 gives a table of strengths which includes:

July 1914 (he doesn’t make clear if that’s before or after mobilisation) 18,234 ashore and afloat

On 15th Nov 1918 there were a total of 55,603 officers and men, ashore and afloat; over 27,500 of those were ashore.

[Greg Bloomfield]

I really meant to imply that they were too small to formulate their own strategic naval or military plan and were dependant on other arms for support, just like any army regiment.

Greg

[PhilB]

I think there also in the Navy List - certainly in the Naval Whos's Who for 1917.

Can anyone confirm that the RM & RMLI are in the 1914 Navy List? Phil B

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The Royal Marines were part of the naval organisation and for them it was the navy that was regarded as the strategic force not the army. So normally for support services the RM tended to look towards the navy first, such as Sick Birth Attendants to supplement their own Infirmary Staff or the mechanical grades for engineering.

In WWI Royal Marine Field Ambulances were formed with men allocated to Deal, as were: both divisional engineers, and a distinct branch of Royal Marine Engineers. Other Royal Marines support services were a divisional train, and their own labour corps. That seems to cover most of the support staff.

At sea they had submarine miners, whist in capital ships the RM manned a gun turret. The RMA ashore manned most sizes of guns from 2 pounder pom-pom anti aircraft to 15 inch howitzers.

The quest for a strategic role for the Royal Marines is a post WWI concern, pre war they had a role sorted out, the growth of the army brought it into question.

[PhilB]

The fact that they`re in the August 1914 & September 1915 Army Lists seems to indicate that, pre- & during WW1, they were part of the Army? Unless they`re also in the August 1914 Navy List, which would make them presumably part of both? Phil B

[Jonathan Saunders]

The fact that they`re in the August 1914 & September 1915 Army Lists seems to indicate that, pre- & during WW1, they were part of the Army? Unless they`re also in the August 1914 Navy List, which would make them presumably part of both? Phil B

With respect if you tell a Royal Marine he is a "brown job" please ensure you have a very fast car.

As far as I aware the nearest the Corps has ever been to being part of the Army was when the RM Bttns of the RND came under Army control. In essence they were paid by The Admiralty, their "contract" was with The Admiralty and they were still ultimately beholding to The Admiralty, for example, they could be transferred by The Admiralty out of the RND and to sea-going service. I think this Army List business is a red herring.

[PhilB]

I think this Army List business is a red herring.

No smoke without fire, Jonathan. You`re not an ex-Marine trying to cover up an unsavoury RM past when they were actually brown jobs? Phil B

[PhilB]

I`ve just noticed that the 1914 & 1915 Army Lists also include the officers of the Royal Flying Corps , Naval Wing (Royal Naval Air Service). Phil B

[Jonathan Saunders]

No smoke without fire, Jonathan. You`re not an ex-Marine trying to cover up an unsavoury RM past when they were actually brown jobs? Phil B

No I am not an ex-bootneck but I know a few. Have sent them all a link to your comments. My money is on you doing the 1500m in record time ...

[PhilB]

[PhilB]

While trying to find data on the relationship between RM and Army, I stumbled on the fact that the last man to be hanged from the yardarm was a marine. Any idea who, why and when? Phil B

[Jonathan Saunders]

While trying to find data on the relationship between RM and Army

Phil can I ask what is your fixation about the Royal Marines having a connection to the army bearing in mind their is no relationship other than professional.

[mmm45]

While trying to find data on the relationship between RM and Army, I stumbled on the fact that the last man to be hanged from the yardarm was a marine. Any idea who, why and when? Phil B

Phil

Marine John Dalinger

Hanged 13th July 1860

HMS Leven China

2X Attempted murder

Ady

[PhilB]

Thanks Ady.

Jon, not a fixation. Still no real explanation as to why they`re in the Army List if they`re so vehemently non-Army! I`ll leave it as one of those little unexplained mysteries. Phil B

[Jonathan Saunders]

Thanks Ady.

Jon, not a fixation. Still no real explanation as to why they`re in the Army List if they`re so vehemently non-Army! I`ll leave it as one of those little unexplained mysteries. Phil B

Try and make the army look better

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The Royal Marines are in the Navy List, right there alongside the Navy officers and they are in the army list too.

Just because they are in the Army List doesn’t make them part of the army. Indian Army officers are also in the list, but they were a different establishment from the home army. One of the functions of the Army List was to establish seniority for officers at a glance. The best illustration of that I know of is in the film Zulu: Chard outranked Bromhead because of his seniority. Having the Army List permitted officers in a crisis to quickly establish seniority if they were from a variety of units thrown together in a crisis.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The Royal Marines were founded in 1664, from the start there was some cross over between officers and men with men serving in one and then the other; there could also be a cross over with men moving between marines and navy. Both John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough and James Wolfe spent times as Marine officers. In subsequent years marines could be attached to the army and army units served afloat although that had rarely (if at all) happened in the Victorian period. Naval brigades served regularly ashore along side the army (Crimea, Egypt, Boer and China Wars) so it was handy for the Royal Marine officers to be in both lists.

Immediately prior to WWI RMLI officer training and Sandhurst were parallel, as were RMA and RA and they could attend at the army staff college. That enabled officers like FW Lumsden RMA to both serve on the army staff and also to lead a standard army brigade.