Footballers died

[IM75]

as for the website IM75 i found it by chance on Twitter yesterday I have followed you (dannyboy1807)

had a little look last night and it was very good, load of us Palace fans are trying to find out ourselves a definite list of players who played for or were playing for Palace who served in the war.

Yes it's going well so far - although we only have player profiles for Villa up to now. It's a case of getting all those who we can find that are reported to have served and are recorded on club records for the 1914/15 season, then cross-referencing them with war records in the near future. Some of the info from clubs has been sketchy to say the least!

The good thing is that there is no time limit and info can be easily amended as we go along. I'm sure we'll get there eventually!

We've got four Palace players so far, that have been temporarily linked to the Holmesdale bio, but I know there's many to add. If you've got any extra info, get in touch anytime!

Thanks

Iain

[Ghazala]

Matt Dickinson writing in The Times today....

According to the FA, a recent visit by Greg Dyke to First World War graves in northern France was just the kick-off for footballs act of remembrance over the next four years. The Football League and the PFA also made the pilgrimage, while the Premier League is in the process of building a floodlit pitch at Ypres in Belgium.

One hundred years after the start of the Great War, we will hear plenty about what the game did for the war effort and those footballers who made the ultimate sacrifice.

It is right and proper that the game reflects but, for balance, we also need to recall how football failed in 1914 in a way that caused much agonising at the time, wounding itself in a way that has consequences to this day.

Dyke, the FA chairman, can be thankful that he will never have to make a decision of the magnitude that faced his predecessors 100 years ago when war broke out in late July 1914. There was an immediate need to mobilise hundreds of thousands of volunteers.

To continue with the looming football season or not? The games went ahead but the sight of fit footballers chasing a ball while thousands of their countrymen were signing up for King and country soon began to provoke dismay.

Field Marshal Lord Roberts of Kandahar addressed a New Army battalion: I respect and honour you more than I can say. How different is your action to that of the men who can still go on with their cricket and football, as if the very existence of our nation were not at stake.

The anger was not just felt among military ranks. Thomas Fry, the Dean of Lincoln, began an outspoken campaign against the game and the spectators turning up in their thousands: Onlookers who, while so many of their fellow men are giving themselves in their countrys peril, still go gazing at football.

George V, as patron of the FA, was lobbied to intervene to stop the matches but the Kings private secretary replied that contractual obligations to the players had to be fulfilled. It was not just sport but business. The FA sought to duck the escalating controversy by asking the War Office to make a ruling. The hot potato was passed straight back to the governing body.

Crickets season finished and, in August, leading rugby clubs announced that they were scrapping all fixtures because they simply did not have enough players. In early September 1914, the RFU formally cancelled all club, county, and international matches.

Yet the Football Leagues hierarchy voted that the show must go on. The FA announced that it would contribute £1,000 to the war fund but had no intention of stopping the FA Cup or the top two divisions.

As more volunteers signed up, a prominent cartoon in October 1914 featured an unapologetic professional footballer being told by Mr Punch, No doubt you can make money in this field, my friend, but theres only one field today where you can get honour.

The FA went on the defensive. Charles Clegg, the chairman, argued that the game was being singled out unfairly. The FA insisted that it was behind the war effort, distributing recruitment posters. Yet attempts to enlist at matches drew dismal numbers, casting the sport in an even worse light.

The Times carried a story One recruit at Arsenal match and noted that this failure contrasts strongly with the wholesale volunteering which has distinguished the performers and devotees of other forms of sport. Rugby union clubs, cricket elevens and rowing clubs throughout the kingdom have poured men into the ranks. This paper became a strident opponent of footballs continuation.

Eventually, the game did respond through the formation of the Footballers Battalion, the 17th Middlesex, in December 1914 at Fulham Town Hall. Frank Buckley, the Derby County and England centre half, was its first member. It quickly grew in numbers, mostly with supporters and amateurs, but also professionals.

Their sacrifice was duly recognised by Dyke but the FA should not draw a veil over the wider controversy that lasted a whole season until the FA Cup Final in 1915, the so-called Khaki Cup final because of the large number of uniformed soldiers present. The Earl of Derby presented the trophy to Sheffield United and then declared everyones duty to now play a sterner game for England. Games were over until 1919.

It is easy to think this was a problem of the time, but the damage was lasting. Football had been the main sport within public schools but the war marked a significant shift in the sporting geography. Dozens of boys schools abandoned football, turning to the oval ball, in the belief that rugby had proven itself a sport that brought up the right sort of chaps, noble defenders of imperial ideals. By 1929, the number of public and grammar schools affiliated to the RFU had more than quadrupled to 133, up from 27 a decade earlier. It was a powerful trend, still felt today.

I went to one of those schools that did not play football and still feel resentful about it. I recall my countless, failed attempts to argue that it was absurd that an English school did not play the national game.

I was no loss to football, but it is fair to wonder how many top players have been missed because of the class polarisation between rugby and football that deepened after the war, especially at independent schools.

Only when there are England players with educated accents might the national team maximise its potential, Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski wrote in their book, Why England Lose.

Dyke can chew on that 100-year-old problem left by his FA predecessors as he leads the commemorations.

[deacs]

I apologise if this is not what you are wanting but i found this from the "West Cumberland Times" from January 9th 1915.

[IM75]

Hi

I just thought I'd let you know that we have a Roll of Honour of footballers killed up on the website now here.

It's an ongoing project, so names and details will be added when they come to light, however, we already have a fairly substantial list of names from English and Scottish football. There is also another list that we are yet to confirm full details of - for inclusion, a date of death, unit and burial/commemoration place is needed.

The list is correct to the very best of our knowledge, however if you notice an anomalies or have details of players not yet included, please let us know and the roll will be updated accordingly.

Thanks

IM

[Jonathan Saunders]

I just thought I'd let you know that we have a Roll of Honour of footballers killed up on the website now here.

Will definitely take a look.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[CROONAERT]

Hi

I just thought I'd let you know that we have a Roll of Honour of footballers killed up on the website now here.

It's an ongoing project, so names and details will be added when they come to light, however, we already have a fairly substantial list of names from English and Scottish football. There is also another list that we are yet to confirm full details of - for inclusion, a date of death, unit and burial/commemoration place is needed.

The list is correct to the very best of our knowledge, however if you notice an anomalies or have details of players not yet included, please let us know and the roll will be updated accordingly.

Thanks

IM

Is it just British footballers that you are looking for details of? (Just asking because I've recently been working on something about the early days of football in Germany and, as an aside, done quite a bit of research on members of die Nationalmannschaft who were killed in the Great War which may be of interest? (Decided on the national team as some of the individual clubs' losses were horrendous in the two world wars and could get too complex ...to give just one (of the more extreme) examples - some 43 players and staff from Berliner Fußball-Club Germania 1888 died during 1914-18.

Dave

[Jonathan Saunders]

Is it just British footballers that you are looking for details of? (Just asking because I've recently been working on something about the early days of football in Germany and, as an aside, done quite a bit of research on members of die Nationalmannschaft who were killed in the Great War which may be of interest? (Decided on the national team as some of the individual clubs' losses were horrendous in the two world wars and could get too complex ...to give just one (of the more extreme) examples - some 43 players and staff from Berliner Fußball-Club Germania 1888 died during 1914-18.

Dave

Sounds interesting to me!

What are your intentions for all this hard work? Do you intend to list/display your findings in some way?

[Fattyowls]

Is it just British footballers that you are looking for details of? (Just asking because I've recently been working on something about the early days of football in Germany and, as an aside, done quite a bit of research on members of die Nationalmannschaft who were killed in the Great War which may be of interest? (Decided on the national team as some of the individual clubs' losses were horrendous in the two world wars and could get too complex ...to give just one (of the more extreme) examples - some 43 players and staff from Berliner Fußball-Club Germania 1888 died during 1914-18.

Dave

Dave, I would be extremely interested in anything you have.

Pete.

[IM75]

Is it just British footballers that you are looking for details of? (Just asking because I've recently been working on something about the early days of football in Germany and, as an aside, done quite a bit of research on members of die Nationalmannschaft who were killed in the Great War which may be of interest? (Decided on the national team as some of the individual clubs' losses were horrendous in the two world wars and could get too complex ...to give just one (of the more extreme) examples - some 43 players and staff from Berliner Fußball-Club Germania 1888 died during 1914-18.

Dave

Hi Dave

The plan is to get a section on German football (and hopefully French) up on the site in the near future, so any help would be fantastic. It is an area I'd also love to find out more about but I don't speak German (and being a Manc living on Merseyside, my neighbours would probably say I struggle to speak English...)

[The Scorer]

Hi

I just thought I'd let you know that we have a Roll of Honour of footballers killed up on the website now here.

It's an ongoing project, so names and details will be added when they come to light, however, we already have a fairly substantial list of names from English and Scottish football. There is also another list that we are yet to confirm full details of - for inclusion, a date of death, unit and burial/commemoration place is needed.

The list is correct to the very best of our knowledge, however if you notice an anomalies or have details of players not yet included, please let us know and the roll will be updated accordingly.

Thanks

IM

I have one addition for you, as follows:

Name: Robert Henry ("Bob") Hammett

Club: Newport County AFC

Date of Death: 25th September 1916

Regiment: 16th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment

Cemetery: Newport (Christchurch) Cemetery, Newport; Ref X.753

The information has been sent to you via your web site, but if you have any questions, please let me know.

[CROONAERT]

Hi Dave

The plan is to get a section on German football (and hopefully French) up on the site in the near future, so any help would be fantastic....

Get in touch with me at some point over the next few months when I'll probably have more detail (so far I've got details on (I believe) all the international players of the 1908-1914 period who died in the Great War - names, player stats, dates and places of birth, home towns, dates of death, place of burial (when possible) and regimental detail etc. I still need to go into a little more detail on their actual service prior to their deaths and also their lives outside of football before I'm happy with what I've got. I also intend to take a look at those who represented a 'German selection' prior to the formation of the official national team and see if any more names crop up.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

What are your intentions for all this hard work? Do you intend to list/display your findings in some way?

No intentions and no idea really!

The original research was totally non-war related and the details on the war casualties just an interesting little side-line that got more interesting (and bigger!) the deeper it got. I'll probably get in touch with the DFB when I'm happy with it before making a decision on what to do with it.

Dave

[wandererpaul]

Hi

I just thought I'd let you know that we have a Roll of Honour of footballers killed up on the website now here.

It's an ongoing project, so names and details will be added when they come to light, however, we already have a fairly substantial list of names from English and Scottish football. There is also another list that we are yet to confirm full details of - for inclusion, a date of death, unit and burial/commemoration place is needed.

The list is correct to the very best of our knowledge, however if you notice an anomalies or have details of players not yet included, please let us know and the roll will be updated accordingly.

Thanks

IM

Hi

I did submit a message, via your website, about a player you have named, Frank Cannon, as playing for Brentford FC. After messaging you, I now believe there was a Frank Cannon - who played for Hitchin, QPR, West Ham, New Brompton, Port Vale & Halifax http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Cannon_(footballer) - who was killed in WW1, as you have stated, but the other 'Cannon', a George Frank, played for Fulham in 1914/15 and also for Brentford in 1919/20, therefore it's a different player.

I have a list of 7 players who played, at some point in their careers, at Brentford FC and who were either KIA, died from wounds or died from, I believe, Spanish flu, but all fought in WW1.

I also have 2 Brentford players listed, one ex player and one who signed in 1939, who died in WW2.

[IM75]

Hi

I did submit a message, via your website, about a player you have named, Frank Cannon, as playing for Brentford FC. After messaging you, I now believe there was a Frank Cannon - who played for Hitchin, QPR, West Ham, New Brompton, Port Vale & Halifax http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Cannon_(footballer) - who was killed in WW1, as you have stated, but the other 'Cannon', a George Frank, played for Fulham in 1914/15 and also for Brentford in 1919/20, therefore it's a different player.

I have a list of 7 players who played, at some point in their careers, at Brentford FC and who were either KIA, died from wounds or died from, I believe, Spanish flu, but all fought in WW1.

I also have 2 Brentford players listed, one ex player and one who signed in 1939, who died in WW2.

Thanks again Paul

[bigbill]

My grandmother's brother William (Tommy) Fisk/e enlisted in the Norfolk Regiment in 1903, and served in South Africa

playing in goal for the Army. He transferred to the Reserve when he was bought out by Norwich FC in 1906, but played in

only one match for them before moving to Blackpool FC in 1907, where he was known as "The Marionette" because of his performance in goal.In 1913 the Directors presented him with a gold watch at his benefit match. After a disagreement with the directors in 1914 Tommy joined Nottingham Forest but played only four games before he was mobilized. He served in France with the 1st Norfolk Regiment, and played for Forest in the Cup Final against Norwich in 1915.Tommy was seen going "over the

top" in his shirt sleeves on 27th May 1918. This précis is taken from an article by Tommy's granddaughter April Zobel.

[ianmccallum]

Hi Guys,

I posted this on the Books Reviews forum but thought it might also be of interest here.

Thought you might be interested in the second book in the Celtic, Glasgow Irish and Great War series 'The Storms Break." The book covers the 1914-15 Scottish football season highlighting the furore over football supporters enlisting into the military and the Middle Class assault on Working Class Association Football. It covers the fall-out between the SFA and FA after the International Conference and explains how Scottish football continued while English football ceased for the duration. The book also covers in detail the raising of the 18th (Glasgow Bantam) Bn. HLI, and looks again at the raising of the 16th (McCrae's) Bn. Royal Scots, giving a slightly different version from Jack Alexander's book of the same name. Additional details of the book can be found at www.theglasgowirish.com

[Guest magpiemick]

Hope this will help you out http://www.footballandthefirstworldwar.com/james-fleming-footballer/

The official history of Newcastle United contains a photo of the 1914 team and states that three of them died in the Great War. They were Thomas Goodwill, Dan Dungilson and Tom Hughes. Goodwill and Dungilson both joined the 16th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers (Newcastle Commercials); both were killed on 1/7/16 in the attack on Thiepval. Their bodies, if recovered, were never identified and they are commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

Hughes is harder to trace in the CWGC database, but there was a casualty of that name in the 27th NF (Tyneside Irish) KIA 1/7/16. This means that it is certain that two Magpies were killed on the first day on the Somme, and possibly three; and all in fairly close geographic proximity.

Two other former Magpies were killed during the War. Captain Tom Rowlandson MC, Yorkshire Regiment, was KIA on 15/9/16 and is buried in Becourt Military Cemetery in the Somme. He was an amateur who played in goal for the Mags, Corinthians and England.

The club history names a fifth player, Major John Fleming, East Yorks Regiment as KIA in 1917, but I cannot find him anywhere in the CWGC database. He played for NUFC between 1911-13 and afterwards for Spurs.

In addition NUFC lost three reserve players KIA; and two more in the flu' epidemic which followed the war.

And then there is D.S. Bell VC. It is uncertain if he actually played for Newcastle, but it is beyond doubt that he was on their books, making Newcastle the only current Premier League team who can claim a connection with this remarkable man. Curiously the NUFC history does not mention him. What this tee-total Sunday School teacher would have made of the behaviour of many modern professional footballers can be imagined.

Source: United: The First 100 Years by Paul Joannou, ACL and Polar Publishing, 1992

[Hedley Malloch]

Mick,

Thank you for the heads-up on Fleming.

[Fattyowls]

Mick, Hedley

Wilf Toman was a centre forward from Bishop Auckland and started his career north of the border in the Aberdeen area. He made his name with Burnley from 1896, had two spells with Everton either side of a season at Southampton. He suffered a serious injury in his second spell at Everton and was released before trying three comebacks, the last of which appears to have been at Newcastle in 1906 although he does not appear to have made a first team appearance. The criteria the EFC Heritage Society use for commemoration is that a player was signed by Everton regardless of whether he made a first team appearance, so we usually include Newcastle when we refer to Wilf's clubs. He was killed on 2nd May 1917 near Bois Grenier while serving with the 2/10th (Scottish) Battalion, The King's Liverpool. Everton are playing Lille in the Europa League on Thursday and some of the fans are going to Erquinghem-Lys to visit Wilf's grave and I understand the club are sending some flowers.

Apologies if you already know all of this, I thought I would post the details just in case.

Pete.

[Hedley Malloch]

Pete,

No I did not know about Toman. Thanks for the information. I appreciate the EFC Heritage Society criteria use for including players. It was a little irritating to see the Newcastle based papers claiming that Bell had turned out 'in front of tens of thousands of fans at St. James' Park' when there was no evidence that he had done any such thing. Bell, like Toman, was on Bishop Auckland's books.

Both NUFC and Crystal Palace had Bell on their books. I hope that there is some appropriate commemoration when the Magpies play the fixture in London. Any Palace fans out there who want to run with this?

As an Everton fan you may have seen that within the last month a London medal house was selling the Death Plaque of an Everton player who was in the 1911 team. He was called Arthur ... (Hedley has another senior moment). He turned out eight times for Everton and later 63 times for Gillingham. The Death Plaque was being sold with a load of photos. The price was very reasonable and I was tempted, but ... . It seems to have been sold now - I only hope that it went to a good home - like yourselves.

I live in Lille and have a ticket for the match on Thursday. A must win for both sides. If you are going and want advice on watering-holes, then drop me a PM.

Best regards

Hedley Malloch

[Fattyowls]

Hedley

I hadn't seen the link; if you can remember the surname I would be hugely interested in him. I'm not going on Thursday but there will be a big representation there. I was hoping to go to tommorrow's ceremony at Y Farm for the boys found at Beaucamps-Ligny but have failed in that quest too. I will definitely be over to Lille in the not too distant future as I have a lot of interests in the area so I'll drop you a line and I can buy you a beer.

Pete.

[Hedley Malloch]

Pete,

His name was Ernest Pinkney, not Arthur something as previously stated.

Hedley

[Fattyowls]

Pete,

His name was Ernest Pinkney, not Arthur something as previously stated.

Hedley

Hedley

You are a prince amongst men, thank you. Having said that I was searching under Arthur and I found a couple of players who survived the war but I didn't have any details on, so everybody wins. I'll start work on Ernest right away. Enjoy the game on Thursday.

Pete.

Edit: Interestingly a search of the electrical interweb suggests that Ernie Pinkney survived the war and returned to Merseyside to play for Liverpool and Tranmere. I know crossing the park to Anfield is bad but I don't think it merits a death plaque somehow. Curiouser and curiouser. I can find only one Ernest Pinkney who fell; a Yorkshire Hussar in October 1918.

[Hedley Malloch]

Pete,

The medal dealer has confirmed the name. He was selling only the Plaque without the medals, but there was a load of Everton memorabilia such as team photos to go with it. There is no obvious Pinkey-Gillingham link on Google.

As you say - curious.

Regards

Hedley

[Fattyowls]

Pete,

The medal dealer has confirmed the name. He was selling only the Plaque without the medals, but there was a load of Everton memorabilia such as team photos to go with it. There is no obvious Pinkey-Gillingham link on Google.

As you say - curious.

Regards

Hedley

Hedley, I've just been to a meeting of the Everton Heritage Society and one of the other members has Pinkney's medals in his collection apparently. He is of real interest in being one of the few men to have played for all three Merseyside clubs. I did manage to find this Wikipedia stub by using an alternative search engine which appears to confirm the Gillingham connection.

I don't know what your schedule is like for Thursday day but there is a little ceremony taking place at Erquinghem-Lys Churchyard Extension for Wilf Toman at 11.00 am weather permitting. The Rev. Harry Ross who is Everton's chaplain and whose dad served with Wilf (and Basil Rathbone) is conducting the ceremony and the local head of the CWGC will be in attendance along with the local press. There will be representation from the football club and members of the EFC Heritage Society will be attending. If they all have time they might actually go to the game afterwards.

Pete.