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Guest Simon Lazenby

2nd Western General Hospital Manchester

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manchester regiment

it doesnt look like its very big,so it could be the gardens,i have ref to some mancs [other ranks] being treated at this hospital and theres also the fact that pte warwick is a patient there,which eliminates the theory of it being for officers only,the officers hospital may have come later,you have to remember that the date of the pictures are from 1st sept,the war isnt even 4 weeks old so why would they have a 250 bed officers hospital at this stage of the war,they couldnt possibly predict a high casualty count amongst officers at this early stage of the war,given the time it takes to convert a building into an hospital it would have to have been started at the same time as the one in the school,it doesnt make sense to have a hospital with 200 beds for other ranks and one with 250 beds for officers,it would mean that they expected to have thousands of wounded officers in the first couple of weeks of the war,i dont think there was an officers hospital on whitworth st at this time,the main thing is that you now know the location,bernard

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John_Hartley

I think you're right about it not being solely officers at that time - I'd forgotten your piccies were from so early. Roy's list must have been taken from a much later date (as, of course, there wouldnt be all those buildings in autumn 1914)

John

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Sue Light

John/Bernard

I'm completely lost now, and the wrists are dripping, BUT:-

Each TF hospital was initially designed to provide 520 beds, and although Manchester expanded rapidly, and more than any other town/city, that first hospital [? Whitworth Street] would have been 520 beds. I suppose that number could have been divided between two sites, particularly if there was no room for huts or tents.

Probably just confuses things a bit more :(

Sue

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John_Hartley

Sue

This is now seriously doing me 'ead in (as we say oop north).

We can probably make an assumption that the original building is the one on Whitworth Street (just to satisfy my own nosiness, I will look up the newspaper reports that Bernard mentioned). There's no reason why that wouldnt have had the 520 beds in the autumn of 1914.

Let's also assume that as 2nd Western General expands during the war, there's an increased "administrative function" at Whitworth. So, bed spaces there are given up to allow for admin and/or the sort of allocation to beds function I thought of earlier (would that have happened, Sue?). And then, by whenever the date of Roy's information was, it had reduced to the 200+ beds for officers. Possible. Yes?

John Blood Gushing Hartley

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Sue Light

John [if you've still enough blood left to remain conscious]

My final analysis.

I think that the hospital originally opened on two sites. One in Whitworth Street in the centre, with 260 or so beds, which were not for officers at that time, as only about 25 officer beds were envisaged [according to another source that I have]. This would seem to be Roy's '2nd Western General Central Hospital,' and the subject of Bernard's photos [unless I'm dimmer than I think**]. Then there were 240 beds at Ducie Avenue, and we know these were in from the beginning. So those two would add up nicely to about the 520 mark, and everything else came later.

The confusion seems to come from thinking that there was only one original hospital building, when in fact there were two - both in schools called 'Central.' I think.

**Answers on a post card.

Sue

Edited by Sue Light

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BJanman

Hi Sue and John

I have read through this thread and have become abit lost so I'm not sure if this helps or confuses more but according to my dad's records the 2nd Western General Hospital operated out of the Municipal Central School where it held 263 beds for Officers. Your post above does not think that it was for Officers. The Ducie Avenue Section of the Hospital 240 beds (88 of these were for jaw cases).

I know my dad had a contact in Manchester who sent him masses of info on the hospitals there, unfortunately I am still in the process of sorting through all his records, correspondance etc and am having a problem locating it. (I have tried). When I do find it I will let you know if there is any reference to where this hospital was located.

Barbara

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Sue Light
I have read through this thread and have become abit lost so I'm not sure if this helps or confuses more but according to my dad's records the 2nd Western General Hospital operated out of the Municipal Central School where it held 263 beds for Officers. Your post above does not think that it was for Officers. The Ducie Avenue Section of the Hospital 240 beds (88 of these were for jaw cases).

At the period we're interested in i.e. August/September 1914, those beds would not have been for officers - it opened, like all the TF hospitals with a complement of 520 beds, 25 of those allocated for officers, and as Bernard points out, there would have been no anticipation at that stage that special officer beds would be needed. Likewise, Ducie Avenue didn't start out with special beds for jaw cases - these are quoted in official end of war figures, but wouldn't have been in existence in 1914. At the outbreak of war only general beds were planned, and everything else came later, particularly with the enormous expansion in Manchester.

John may not answer, having bled to death overnight :lol:

Sue

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BJanman

Ok, I'm with you now.

Have any of you read the Official History? If not I can look to see if there is any information in there.

Also, I'll see if I can locate that information sent to my dad. I remember him telling me that the researcher had found masses of information in an archived area that had not been touched for years, this was a couple of years ago so it may be more readily available now and you know about it. Then again, it may not even be on the 2nd Western but I will see what I can do and come back to you. Hopefully it will be before John bleeds to death.

Barbara

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Sue Light

Barbara

I checked the Official History for one or two things when I was compiling my data about the buildings that housed the original TF hospitals, but don't remember seeing anything that was relevant - but would be grateful if you find anything that I missed.

And details of any archived material that is not common knowledge is always interesting. I'm sure there must be so much stored away uncatalogued all over the country - there are quite a few things that I would be willing to travel a long way to find!

Sue

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BJanman

Sue

I didn't get much of a chance yesterday to look for that information as I had to do a long shift at work. I did manage to look at my copy of A Short History of 207 (Manchester) General Hospital RAMC(V) and to add to MartinWills post, no 25, where it states "The 2nd Western General Hospital had a strengh of 3 Officers and 43 rank and file prior to 1914"

it also states

"500 beds were to be provided on mobilisation, and buildings taken over included Educational establishments, Poor Law Institutions and Asylums. The Territorial Association equipped these hospitals according to an agreed scale. The hospital was ready to admit patients from 16th August 1914 from neighbouring camps".

I'm not sure if the additional information is relevant to you. It doesn't give locations so I will keep digging.

I'm back at work today but then I'm off until Friday late afternoon so will have time then to have a good hunt.

I agree with you that there will be much information stored away uncatalogued, whats horrifying is that people can tend to just throw it away. I would love to spend time trying to track it down.

Barbara

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Martyn L

I don't know much about hospiatls from this era but I can confirm that the street/roads below all have old school buildings, still currently standing which would have been built before WW1.

8. Grecian Street 178 beds OR, S/P.

13. Langworthy Road 154 beds OR, S/P.

22. Tootal Road 240 beds OR, S/P.

Regards

Martyn

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jemm

Just to add to this thread I do know that soldiers were transfered from 2nd Western Manchester to the Fernhill Auxillary Hospital in Stacksteads. Fernhill is one of my intrests and I often wondered about the soldiers cared for there, then recently I came across a article in the 1915 local paper which gave details of the first soldiers treated in Fernhill. Stacksteads today is about 45 mins drive from city center Manchester, in 1915 the railway ran from Manchester right into Bacup and Stacksteads Stations, so was easily accesible.

Fernhill opened it's doors to it's first patients from the 2nd Western General Hospital Manchester on Sunday November 16th 1914. Patients being transported there using private cars loaned to the hospital by many of the local gentry. The soldiers arrived at Fernhill just after noon and where met by the Mayor and Mayoress, the doctors and Mrs Sutcliffe the Matron, Lady Superintendent Simpson and first officer Rushton with other members of staff also present. The patients consisted of: Corporal Sdyney Moss - 3rd Rifle Brigade. Private McVitty - Irish Guards, Private D Garratt - 3rd Worcester, Private Browns - 10th Hussars, Private Macentie - Royal Field Artillery, Private Fitzpatrick - Irish Guards, Private Burgoyne - 1st Devon, Private Moss - 2nd Manchester's.

Another four soldiers arriving a few days later their names being : Pte. Tomlinson - Cheshire Regiment, Pte Fitzpatrick - 2nd Kings Own Scottish Borderers, Pte. Coles - 1st Devon's, and Pte .Whiting - 1st Royal Berkshire Regiment.

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sheffielder
Thanks All for the help, I can now place him at 'Grecian Street' as I understand what the writing on the card says.

If anyone is interested in postcards I can always send a copy on, it's a 'Quick, give me some news from you' card.

Is there anything left of the Grecian St section?

Simon

Hello Simon

I am very interested in all the info about the West General Hospital, Manchester as one of my relatives was there during 1917/18. He was in the Canadian Expeditionary Force 175th Battalion and was gassed in France in 1917. Like you, I have been unable to track this hospital down but it seems from your replies that it was scattered all over Manchester. My relative was born in England but emigrated to Canada and enlisted in the CEF. He returned to England in 1916 then onto France. Whilst in Manchester he lived in Russell Street, Levenshulme (don't know where this was either!). I would love a copy of your postcard if this is possible please. If anyone can throw any light onto Russell Street, Levenshulme, I would be very grateful.

Kath

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manchester regiment
Hello Simon

I am very interested in all the info about the West General Hospital, Manchester as one of my relatives was there during 1917/18. He was in the Canadian Expeditionary Force 175th Battalion and was gassed in France in 1917. Like you, I have been unable to track this hospital down but it seems from your replies that it was scattered all over Manchester. My relative was born in England but emigrated to Canada and enlisted in the CEF. He returned to England in 1916 then onto France. Whilst in Manchester he lived in Russell Street, Levenshulme (don't know where this was either!). I would love a copy of your postcard if this is possible please. If anyone can throw any light onto Russell Street, Levenshulme, I would be very grateful.

Kath

hello kath,i live in levenshulme,born and bred there,i dont know of any russell st,i have a map from 1905 of levenshulme,theres no russell st,what was his name,bernard

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sheffielder
hello kath,i live in levenshulme,born and bred there,i dont know of any russell st,i have a map from 1905 of levenshulme,theres no russell st,what was his name,bernard

Hello Bernard

My relative's name (he was my great uncle) was Ernest Osborne Hancock and on his marriage certificate to Edith Wagland (1917) and on his twins' birth certificates (1918) his address is given as 23 Russell Street. They were married at the parish church of St Mark, Levenshulme so I assumed that Russell Street was in Levenshulme but I could be totally wrong on this. On the twins' birth certificates it gives the registration district of Chorlton in the sub-district of Rusholme. I don't know if this makes things any clearer but it is the only info I have on them whilst they were still in England at this time.

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John_Hartley

With that additional information, I think it's likely to be the Russell Street in Moss Side. It still exists. This link should work

clickety click

and you'll find photos of the street at the Manchester Local Images Collection

clickety click again

Type "russell street" in the search box.

John

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sheffielder
With that additional information, I think it's likely to be the Russell Street in Moss Side. It still exists. This link should work

clickety click

and you'll find photos of the street at the Manchester Local Images Collection

clickety click again

Type "russell street" in the search box.

John

Hi John

Thanks very much for this - I've found lots of great photos.

Kath

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John_Hartley

Pals

I've finally been to have a nosy at the newspapers that Bernard mentioned in post #40. Unfortunately they are no use, as such, in our quest to identify this building, as they are virtually all internal shots of happy smiling soldiers recovering from fairly minor wounds (I think one might call this propaganda. The one exterior shot only shows the doorway of the building.

However, there is good news :)

The first photo, in the newspaper's 3 September 1914 edition, is captioned "The Central Secondary School, Whitworth Street, now the 2nd Western General Hospital with 200 beds for wounded and sick soldiers".

I think we can regard this as proof positive that this is the original building (and I'm somewhat relieved to have confirmation that my guess many months ago, was right - he said, smugly), perhaps alongside the one previously mentioned on Ducie Avenue. All other buildings that also became part of 2nd Western General were established later.

This is the building (circa 1957, but still there)

post-72-1159971340.jpg

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Rodge Dowson

Grecian St. School is still there in Broughton, Salford. I had an MM & Bar winner from the school with 15th R/Scots in my book and his father was the caretaker there during the GW period.

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Guest PJH
Hello Simon

I am very interested in all the info about the West General Hospital, Manchester as one of my relatives was there during 1917/18. He was in the Canadian Expeditionary Force 175th Battalion and was gassed in France in 1917. Like you, I have been unable to track this hospital down but it seems from your replies that it was scattered all over Manchester. My relative was born in England but emigrated to Canada and enlisted in the CEF. He returned to England in 1916 then onto France. Whilst in Manchester he lived in Russell Street, Levenshulme (don't know where this was either!). I would love a copy of your postcard if this is possible please. If anyone can throw any light onto Russell Street, Levenshulme, I would be very grateful.

Kath

I have come in rather late on this lengthy discussion about the West General Hospital! I was interested to read your contribution Kath as my father told me before he died in 1998 that Leicester Road School in Higher Broughton, Salford was used as a military hospital for Canadian Soldiers. He was born in Higher Broughton 1919 and in fact attended that school as a child. His mother gave him this information before she died in 1977. She had a sister who married a Canadian and emigrated to Winnipeg.

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cassie

Just to add to the mix I have a VAD dying there in 1918 we think of influenza I assume there would have been seperate wards for women does anyone have any further information on this?

Gill

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Sue Light

'No.2 Western General Hospital' was a broad term to describe a very large entity. By 1918 the hospital had expanded into many different sections. I've just had a rough count and can identify twenty-three different buildings/sections within the city and others outside. There will have been a Sisters' Hospital set aside somewhere within those especially to accommodate sick nursing staff. Hopefully the death certificate will give an exact place of death rather than using the general term for the hospital. The British Red Cross Archives may have more information so always worth contacting them:

British Red Cross Archives

Sue

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cassie

Hi Sue

The death certificate is on its way I will let everyone know what it says. I have just recieved her record card from the Red Cross which is lovely but doesnt tell me any more.

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Guest mazy

Hi

I was tracking back on some information on my old school, and saw that it was used as a hospital in WW1. It is in the city centre Manchester on Whitworth St- a big building - started out as a school, turned into a hospital and back into a school again. It is still a college operating today - known as Shena Simon Manchester City College. It was said the basement was haunted by the ghosts from the war. If you google Whitworth St, Central High school for Girls - you will see the building. It may be one of the many sites /hospitals in operation at that time. Hope it helps x   

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John_Hartley
2 hours ago, mazy said:

It may be one of the many sites /hospitals in operation at that tim

It was. As noted upthread, the building on Whitworth Street was the original, and main, operation for 2nd Western General - but there were many locations round the area that were set up and came under its general direction.

 

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Edited by John_Hartley

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