2nd Western General Hospital Manchester

[Sue Light]

Sue

Thanks so much for the information that you provided. At least No2 General hospital gets a mention.

Simon

Unfortunately, this is No.2 British General Hospsital in France, rather than 2nd Western General, Manchester, so I think you're back to the drawing board on that one

Martin

I think that definitely means I can totally reject the outsider, which I'm pleased about - I don't think an open carriage would have graced the far flung reaches of Openshaw!

Sue

[John_Hartley]

Sue

I agree. Openshaw was then near the outskirts of the "city proper". This must be the city centre Whitworth Street

My reading of Martin's extract where it refers to "taking over buildings" suggests that this was not a previous hospital facility. It is a so-and-so that we cannnot place where such a large and signifciant building must have been.

John

[Kate Wills]

So, for clarification, is '2nd Western General' a collective term for a group of hospitals of varying sizes in and around Manchester?

[Guest JWS]

Hello.

The Hospital at Tootal Road, Weaste was in fact a school, I was born at Weaste and

attended both Tootal Drive (primary) and Tootal road (secondary), I once had

a picture of wounded soldiers from the WW1, gathered outside the side entrance

to the school.

Weaste is located between Salford and Eccles, it is on the UK map website.

Mike.

[bernardmcilwaine]

john/sue,this bloke was serving at whitworth st hospital.

pte s.williamson

RAMC

625

the ramp into the old station is still there,they brought a lot of wounded in at night,do you think the hospital was a selection centre for wound types,many of the hospitals dealt with certain types of wounds/injuries,could this hospital have been the first port of call for them before being passed to the relevant hospital,theres one building that was perfect for this,the old fire station,it had living accomadation that could be turned into wards,the court building and coroners court could also be used as wards,theres also plenty of room for an admin centre in the other offices and plenty of room for the ambulances because theres a huge yard in the centre plus the parking places where they parked the fire engines,its a perfect building for a hospital,just a thought,bernard

[John_Hartley]

Bernard

It's possible. My original bet had been on the adjacent High School (they would still have needed a fire station). However, all the indications are that the hospital was at the "other end" of Whitworth Street - somewhere towards Hulme. We think!

John

[manchester regiment]

2nd western general hospital was housed in the old central secondary school on whitworth st,once the wounded from this hospital had recuperated,they were then sent on to the municipal day training college on princess st,m/c,whitworth park was closed off and used as a place of convalesence for those in 2nd western general.bernard

[John_Hartley]

Bernard

What's your source for this?

My original thoughts had also been that it was the the old Central High but Sue's later research suggested that it as down the other end of Whitworth Street ( at the Hulme end). Have you found some evidence that it was the school?

John

[manchester regiment]

i have pictures of the place,with wounded being transported to and from the hospital,AND not just allied wounded,there are also germans,bernard

[John_Hartley]

Bernard

Could you please post a piccie. It would be the conclusive proof.

I hope we're talking about the same place - next to the canal, opposite the UMIST building and a little park in front of it?

John

[manchester regiment]

john,i havent got my scanner up and running yet,thepark is mentioned as being used for the benefit of the wounded from 2nd western general hospital,whitworth st,[sept 1st 1914]formerly the old central secondary school now turned over to the military as a hospital,convalescenting soldiers are passed on to manchester municipal training college,now used as a convalescensing centre for those from 2nd western general on whitworth st,i have a picture of the hospital,pictures of wounded in and outside of the hospital,a picture of walking wounded on their way to m/c municipal training college,and one of wounded in whitworth park,there is also a picture of pte j,warwick of the 2nd batt DLI who has been wounded and also recommmended for the VC,who is a patient at the hospital,WHAT more proof do you need,there cant be that many 2nd western general hospitals on whitworth st in 1914,bernard

[John_Hartley]

WHAT more proof do you need,there cant be that many 2nd western general hospitals on whitworth st in 1914

Bernard

I don't need any more proof, mate - but then I wasn't the one trying to identify it. But I'll drop Sue a PM to make sure she doesnt miss your post.

The only possible points of confusion being the indication Sue has that it was at the Hulme end of Whitworth Street and your own earlier post suggesting that it was more likely to be the fire station. And, looking at Roy's much earlier post, there were 2nd Western buildings all over what's now Greater Manchester. But seeing as you have the photo and the school building still exists, it should be easy to confirm 100% if its the same or not.

Do you have any idea where the "municipal training college" was? Was that UMIST or somewhere else? Whitworth Park, of course, is a couple of miles away in any event.

John

[Sue Light]

The only possible points of confusion being the indication Sue has that it was at the Hulme end of Whitworth Street and your own earlier post suggesting that it was more likely to be the fire station. And, looking at Roy's much earlier post, there were 2nd Western buildings all over what's now Greater Manchester.

Thanks for the continuing interest.

Did I ever think it was in Hulme? Not knowing the area at all, I don't really know where it is, but I think we'd discounted the Openshaw option after finding out the King and Queen were parading around in an open carriage.

But just to go back to the origins of the question. With the formation of the Territorial Force in 1908, and the accompanying medical services, the War Office earmarked public buildings to be used as hospitals in the event of hostilities, and by and large these tended to be schools. There's never been any doubt that the main building earmarked in Manchester was in Whitworth Street, but from 1915, the number of hospital facilities in the city mushroomed to provide thousands of beds in a myriad of buildings, all under the umbrella of 2nd Western General.

My prime aim was to put a name to the actual building in Whitworth Street that was used [bearing in mind that there seemed to be two bits to Whitworth Street]. So am I correct in saying [once and for all] that the building in Whitworth Street was 'The Girls' Central High School' and can I confirm that this the same as the 'Old (Central) Secondary School'?

And finally - Bernard, can I assume that the information you have is from local newspapers, and if so, could you let me know which ones they were?

Thanks

Sue

[John_Hartley]

Did I ever think it was in Hulme?

Sue

I think it was in something you shared with me. A letter from the matron? Something like that. There was definately a description of where the building was that gave me the impression it was at the "other end" of Whitworth Street to where the school is.

The reason I am perhaps being overly "picky", is that the question of where the place's location has cropped up on more than one occasion since this Forum was started. Until Bernard's post no-one has been been able to ID it with any certainty.

I am not doubting that it was the school (and you'll recall that the building was always my best guess) - it's just I think that now we actually have some evidence, it'd be good to nail it once and for all. As I say, easily done - as Bernard has the photo and the building is still there in what I reckon is original state. I appreciate Bernard can't scan it at present - but if it's from a newspaper cutting, if he lets me know the edition, I'll go and get a copy from the Library.

John

[manchester regiment]

john,these are the page numbers,dates and the paper.

the manchester evening mail

sept 3rd 1914

sept 22nd 1914

sept 23rd 1914

sept 30th 1914

oct 1st,3rd and 10th 1914

this paper seems to have gone out of existance in 1916.

the pictures will positively ID the correct location and they will be a nice addition to sues archive,they are quite big pictures,bernard

ps,the m/c municipal training college was on princess st

[Sue Light]

As all the Territorial Hospitals seemed to make the local headlines in 1914, I always thought that Manchester would be no exception - a pity that the local studies library never replied to my queries. I shall be interested in your results John.

But my PC comes up totally blank with Hulme - even Gmail refuses to accept that I ever mentioned it - Ducie Avenue... Leicester Road...

I shall just put it down to old age and failing senses

Sue

[manchester regiment]

sue/john,there may be some additional text in the papers,i didnt check,and there may be more pictures,i only checked up till the end of sept,ime afraid i ran out of time,i originally only checked the paper to see if there were any casualty lists and up popped the pics,all will be revealed when john goes to the library,bernard

BTW sue,i asked the librarian about pictures and for a £5 fee you can take as many digital photos as you want from the newspapers in a four hour period.

[John_Hartley]

Sue

It'll be a couple of weeks or so before I can get to the library.

I can't recall exactly what the specific reference was, but I remember you quoting a letter or article from, I think, the matron. In this she gave a location or address (or sumfink) and we agreed that she must have known where she was!

John

[Sue Light]

BTW sue,i asked the librarian about pictures and for a £5 fee you can take as many digital photos as you want from the newspapers in a four hour period.

Bernard

Last year, in view of the distance, I was hoping that they might oblige with some copies, but after 3 emails I couldn't even get past first base - they were the only archive I contacted that didn't come up with the goods [they didn't come up at all ] - I even offered them money!

Anyway, I still feel rather aggrieved at their lacksadaisical attitude, and might re-visit the problem with them, just to see if things have improved at all. And in case they haven't, then I have John as sturdy back-up!

John

Not wishing to flog a dead horse, but this is what I have tucked away in my email - apologies for divulging our personal affairs online:

Somewhere along the line, I think I might have got it! After I wrote the last email, I realised that I'd failed to bookmark the place where I'd found the reference to Ducie Avenue. In a mad scramble to find it again, I came across this:

'Ducie Avenue Central School, Whitworth Street, Moss Side... the red brick double storey building is still there, but now provides accommodation for the homeless...'

I then found my original reference in the British Journal of Nursing for 1915, which gives:

'2nd Western General Hospital, Ducie Avenue, Manchester'

So either the school formed the hospital, or was combined with another school nearby [Whitworth Street]. I did email the Local Studies Library, but haven't had a reply yet.

Sometimes I wish that the words Whitworth Street had remained absent from my life

Sue

[Sue Light]

And here's the little snippet I sent:

[John_Hartley]

Sue/Bernard (and anyone else who has not yet slashed their wrists over this one)

I think I can put this together now.

Sue posts the press snippet that Margaret Davies was at "Ducie Avenue". This is referred to in themonstar's list above as one of the buildings that eventually went to make up 2nd Western General. Without question, Ducie Avenue was in the Hulme/ Moss Side area of the city and was originally a school (and returned to this use afterwards). It's been variously known as the Central School, Ducie Avenue High School and, latterely, Ducie High School.

There is a 1915 reference to it in this link

Clickety click

If you go to this link you'll find yourself at the Manchester Libraries Images Archive. Key in "Ducie School" and you'll see piccies of the building.

Sue - I'm now confident that this is the answer to your original query to me. On that basis, unless you need me to, I won't now go and look for the newspaper extracts suggested by Bernard. Although it'd be great if Bernard could post them, as & when his scanner is up and running.

Much of the confusion has arisen, I think, because of the the use of the word "Central" in the name of the school. The school on Whitworth Street was the Central Grammar School for Girls (an entirely different beastie from the school in Moss Side/Hulme). Is this the place that Roy, in post #5, calls the "Central Hospital" with 263 officer beds? (Bernard - are they officers in the park in fornt of the building?) Perhaps it was also the administrative HQ for the whole network of buildings across Greater Manchester. In view of its proximity to the main railway station could it have been used a a sort of triage centre (I know triage isnt the word used this far down the casualty chain but I mean a sort of allocator of patients to beds?)

Other than that, I'm going back to a relatively easy subject - like Haig.

John

[Sue Light]

John

Thank you for that summing up - unless/until anyone knows different?

I'm glad that this thread started after I'd submitted what I had - otherwise I would certainly have been among the wrist slashers!

Sue

[manchester regiment]

it did have 200+ beds but it wasnt for officers,the men are NCOs and ptes,bernard

[manchester regiment]

one of the pics is of one of the wards,with the nurses and patients.

one is the front of the hospital with a big sign over the door saying hospital.

another is outside the hospital,it shows them unloading wounded from a ambulance and wounded leaving the hospital.

another was taken in whitworth park,it shows wounded soldiers relaxing.

another shows more wounded arriving and the last one shows british and german wounded arriving at the hospital

and theres one of pte j.warwick at the hospital

bernard

[John_Hartley]

Bernard

In post#48, you say it wasnt for officers, but Roy in his post #5 refers to the "Central Hospital" which has is for officers. Surely Roy's information must be referring to the building on Whitworth Street as he doesnt mention Whitworth Street anywhere else in the his list.

The photo of soldiers in "Whitworth Park" must be the Whitworth Park that's opposite the Infirmary and a mile or so away from Whitworth Street. The small park (that I was referring to) next to the Central Grammar School on Whitworth Street has always been called either "Whitworth Gardens" or "Sackville Park". Unless, of course, the caption in the photo is wrong - but I'd hope it's easy to spot on the photo. Whitworth Park is a big park thingy, whilst Whitworth Gardens is a small place about 100 yards x 50 yards.

John