All the King's Men

[RobL]

Yes, very interested to see the proof of female Turkish snipers too...

[wet255]

Thank you. Re female snipers I did see a pic of three of them dressed as bushes which is where we got the idea from. We used a very beautiful Spanish actress as the sniper who managed to break her leg during filming so had to find another. I have read that the Turks used female snipers but have my doubts because as Muslims not sure it would have been allowed. Great entertainment value though.

Edited 9 May , 2013 by Keith Roberts
duplicated comment

[keithmroberts]

It would be helpful if you can remember the source of the photograph.

It seems clear that virtually all the serious students of the campaign, including the Turkish ones regard the female sniper as a product of someone's imagination, and as a tale that became enhanced in the retelling. If there were any primary sources that supported the story, there would be some red faces about. The trouble of course with a photograph, is that it could be easily faked, and so needs a watertight evidential chain to be taken as primary evidence. In my own neck of the woods we had a photograph that was taken seriously for a while http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9204674.Cottingley_fairies_case_expert_Joe_Cooper_dies/ which is why an image by itself would not convince.

Keith

[T8HANTS]

There is an interesting parallel to Cap't Becks watch. Cap't Arthur Holmes-Gore of the 8th Hants, who was an early star of the British movie industry, having just played the leading role in the first silent version of "The Prisoner of Zenda", before volunteering, was also killed during the action. His binoculars clearly inscribed, were discovered in 1917, by an Australian in the possession of an Arab, who had aquired them from a Turk he had killed during the operations in Palestine. What remains unclear is, if the Aussie repatriated them on behalf of the Empire.

[Lone Pine2]

Know someone whose Father was there, so obviously not all KIA, also was told by him that Captain Becks, the last time anyone saw him he was sitting up against something and already dead or dying so not shot by the Turks!

[bob lembke]

Have studied Gallipoli quite a bit, mostly from the Turkish/German side (as my father fought there with the Turks as a volunteer), and have to

make a few observations. Have also read a fair number of primary sources and histories from the Allied side. Also have worked on a couple of new editions of a book on Gallipoli written by a (present) German officer who has fluent Turkish and served four years in the command structure of the famous Third Army Corps of the Turkish Army.

Allied sources make many mentions of "German officers" in combat, like the mention of the officer ordering prisoners killed earlier in the thread. Generally, there were no German officers involved in small-unit operations, they would be generally found in staff or advisory or command positions at the divisional level, or possibly at the regimental level. Someone else made the suggestion that Turkish officers, being very much better dressed, and possibly being lighter complected, might be taken for Germans.

Not at all excusing maltreatment, and war crimes, but life in the Turkish Army of the period, among the enlisted ranks, was extremely brutal and life-threatening, and the life of a POW of the Turkish Army of the period would be a nightmare, if you were treated and fed exactly like the Turkish ORs were treated.

Each Turkish battalion had an imam, who were very influential in the management of the battalion. They would not have tolerated women "snipers" serving in Turkish units for one second. (The one thing that the Turkish Army, in 1915, did not lack were brave men willing to die for their country.) German staff officers who served in the Turkish Fifth Army gave these imams very high marks, and observed that upon occasion, in situations where all of the officers were killed, the imams took over the command of a battalion and led it with bravery and distinction.

Having said that, the Turkey that arose out of the ashes of WW I gave women the vote at about the same time that they did get it in the UK and US. With the possible exception of Iceland, the first country that gave women the vote was the nearby Muslim nation of Azerbaijan (the Soviet Union quickly put a halt to that), and about 200 years ago Turkish women had a great deal more legal and property rights than their British and US cousins. That is a fascinating topic, but one quite far OT.

[wet255]

The DVD which you can pick up quite cheaply now also contains the documentary which is more factual. Glad u enjoyed the film.

[Bryn]

Not interested in starting a debate, as this is off-topic anyway, but according to this article, it was in New Zealand that women were first given the vote (that wasn't later repealed), in 1893: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women's_suffrage

[Bryn]

Philip Dutton, of the Imperial War Museum, referring to the 'disappearance' of the 1/5th Norfolks, wrote that:

"Absurd explanations have entered the equation - abduction by aliens and disappearance within strange-shaped clouds."

Numerous articles have appeared suggesting that aliens had abducted the men because it had been reported that they had disappeared into a 'cloud.' See, as an example, http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/2013/02/266-british-soldiers-disappear-in-1915-without-a-trace-2447930.html or http://gaizy.hubpages.com/hub/The-Regiment-that-Vanished-into-Thin-Air-Mystery-Files

It's been claimed in another thread here that the story of the Norfolks disappearing into a cloud began in the latter part of the campaign, which would mean late 1915/1916, however it is easily proved that no such story existed for fifty years after the event, when Frederick (Friedrich) Reichardt (ex 4/165A Sapper, New Zealand Engineers, NZEF) made the claim on Anzac Day, 1965.

The whole story is thoroughly covered, including the fact that Reichardt made the claim in 1965, in McCrery, N. The Vanished Battalion. One of the Greatest Mysteries of the First World War Finally Solved. In fact, Reichardt claimed he had seen the the 1/4th Norfolks, and that this had been on 21 Aug, not 12 Aug, so while he may have kicked the story off, others have run with, modified and embellished it.

It seems we went fifty years after 1915 without the 'strange cloud' and the spin-off flying-saucer - ufo - alien abduction theories being put forward as an explanation.

[Moonraker]

"All the King's Men" is on the Yesterday channel tonight at 1900 - says the listings in the Sunday Times "Culture" supplement.

 

Moonraker

[Moonraker]

"The Lost Army"

 

by Margery Lawrence

 

Apparently written in memory of the 1/5th Norfolks.

 

Moonraker