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Remembered Today:

All the King's Men


Garde Grenadier

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Just got the the video with David Jason as main character. I found it quite moving.

I cannot understand why the truth about the Sandringhams was kept dark for so long.

What do others think about this and the film?

Regards

Daniel

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Daniel - Have a look at this CLICK.

When I first saw the film I was impressed, as time has gone on and I have read more on the topic I now see it as a work of fiction based on facts.

Saying that, I still enjoy watching it so long as I see it as a work of fiction and not a WWI documentry.

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Unfortunately, after a very good beginning (David Jason and Maggie Smith are both excellent in my view) the story lapses into unhistorical (not to say hysterical) melodrama and cliche. The incident with the female sniper is simply ridiculous. Budgetary restrictions give the unfortunate impression that the Sandringham Company made the fatal attack entirely on their own. The documentary which is usually included on the video of the drama is pretty good, I recall, and it is worth reading the original book (with the same name) by Nigel McCrery for the historical background. There was also a 'Stand To' magazine article in c. 2000 on the Sandringham Company.

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Garde Grenadier

I do hope that you will go to the link given by Lee. Not only will you see what Forum members had to say on this topic but - most importantly - you will find a link to that part of the Imperial War Museum's site that deals with Gallipoli.

Fascinating stuff that certainly isn't helped by the fiction.

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Whilst it is an entertaining piece of "faction" it does grate with anyone familiar with the actuality of events.

For me the most annoying things are the palm trees (plentiful in Spain but not on Gallipoli) and the view from Suvla over to the plains of Troy (...if it wasn't for the hills in between .. ).

Enjoy it by all means as a piece of drama, but don't expect the complete truth.

The men who died were found in a mass grave between Azmak and the Kiretch Tepe Ridge in a small hollow and were reinterred at Azmak cemetery. There were some survivors - at least one, a Northampton Solicitor survived a period as a POW.

The controversy dates from events much later, not least the publication (in the 1950's I think) of the tale of the battalion disappearing into a cloud. It was quite simply the action of over enthusiastic officers who pressed on without support on the flanks.

Martin

PS The IWM Gallipoli web pages (an on line exhibition) really are excellent.

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Thanks for all your answers. Of course - I should have thought so with this forum - it was already disscussed in another thread. I couldn't find it though.

Apart from the two scenes mentioned I found the film well done and worth watching - as a piece of fiction and drama. Reality is often far from it...

Daniel

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I was at an East Kent WFA seminar yesterday at which Taff Gillingham explained the role of the Khaki Chums and gave a rivetting demonstration of the development of the British Army uniform from the Boer War up until 1916. As military advisor to the BBC production team, Taff went to some lengths to explain that although the uniforms and weaponry were spot on, All the King's Men really shouldn't be seen as anything other than a well-crafted (not necessarily historically accurate) piece of Sunday evening drama.

Gary

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

This is from 'The Disappearance of the King's Company (Sandringham) in Gallipoli : the day the hills caught fire.' by Tom Williamson, a member of the 1/5th Norfolks. Published in 1979.

"I was in action next to this company and saw them late in the battle, and I believe I know, at least in part, the answer to the mystery.

They were sheltering in a barn in a scrub-like area and the fires that I mentioned earlier had spread all around them. I saw the Sergeant of the Sandringham Company trying to rally his men around him. Many were already wounded and killed, but those who could not walk were destroyed by the fire, and others, who were actually inside the Turkish defences, were outnumbered and overpowered, and in any case were never heard of again. The mystery largely remains a mystery, but I was there to witness in part the terrible predicament that the King’s Company was in.

Later there was a footnote to the affair. The attack in which we had taken part had finally come to a halt. It was now seen to be the utmost folly to attempt to cross the Suvla Plain in broad daylight. But Colonel Beauchamp, an officer of great bravery, had rallied the King's Company and other companies and pressed on to the objective in the best traditions of the regiment but with terrible losses in officers and men. He was 58 when he made the attack.

In 1919 the War Graves Commission reported that some remains of the 1/5th Norfolks were believed to have been discovered. They were scattered over an area of a square mile more than 800 yards behind the Turkish lines. Only two men could be identified.

Of those taking part only a few men, of which I was one, were able to find their way back."

No mystery there!

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Greetings, Bryn

Do I have to become 'Pommie Bryn' now you're a contributor to the site :unsure:

I also had a lot to do with the IWM Gallipoli pages mentioned on this thread... spooky sssssssssstuff.

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  • 2 months later...

The book on which the TV movie was based is excellent: a slim but well researched and well written piece. It appears that the Sandringhams were cut to pieces, cut off and cut down. Their bodies were turfed into a ditch by the returning landowner and the remains reburied in 1919. This was not uncommon and why they are few named graves for either side on the Gallipoli peninsula. It is very probable that the survivors of the action itself were shot by indignant defenders. This DID happen - of all the Australians reported missing in 1915, only one (yes 1!) was handed over in 1918.

Also the co. commanders watch was returned post war to his daughter and given to her on her wedding day. It had been recovered by a Turkish officer who offset destitution in post war Turkey by selling it to the British Consulate.

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To 'Pommie Bryn'; Sorry, I hadn't caught your response till now. I'm so unused to anyone else having the same name (only ever met one other 'Bryn') that maybe I was stunned.

In response to the theory put forward that some of the Sandringhams may have been executed after the action, the following is from an account of the death of Lieutenant Fred Youden, 15th Battalion AIF, in the foothills below Hill 971, 8th August 1915:

'18, Carlton House Terrace.

18th. Jan. 1916.

Lieut. Youden. 15th A.I.F.

Sir,

We have received the following report.

Sergt. Robert Hunter, 451, of the same Regt. C. Coy. now In Hanworth Red X Hosp. Middlesex, (home address Lower Kent Rd. Maryborough, Queensland, Australia.) who is described to us as an intelligent man, states: 'On Aug. 6-8 1915 at Sari Bair, Gallipoli, Lt. Youden was out off with a party of about 26, who were forced to surrender. The German officer ordered them to be stripped, laid face downwards and shot. One man was not killed, was carried in and told the tale, dying 2 hours later. It was a 6 days fight advance by us. I was told by Pte. A. Proctor, who came from Bundaberg, Queensland. He is believed to have rejoined his Regt. after being wounded and sent to Malta & England. Also by Pte. Henderson, address unknown.'

Your obedient Servant.

(Sgd.) F.M.

for SIR LOUIS MALLET.

R.C. Smart Esq.,

130, Horseferry Rd.

Westminster,

London. S.W.'

(Typed A4 sheet in Lieut. Youden's service record).

So was it possible that executions occurred? It seems so, if we're to believe the word of surviving eye-witnesses. There wouldn't have been many survivors of such incidents of course.

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The killing of unarmed men after capture is as old as war itself.

It did notice a special on the National Geographic channel about the battle of Agincourt, that most of the French deaths were not caused by the arrows of British Archers but by their daggers after they had surrendered on the order of the King.

The King who having so many on hand following the battle felt he could not look after so many with a beaten French Army still around. So he had them all killed and that may have been in the Thousand's.

S.B

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There are a number of examples of apparent exceution of POWs during the Gallipoli campaign.

Several members of the 5th Connaught Rangers were alleged executed after they surrendered during the fighting on Hill 60 (unable to asecertain whether on 21 Aug or 27 Aug 1915). A German officer stopped the bayoneting of a undetermined number of men. At least one man survived the resulting captivity.

In his book "Memories of Four Fronts" Lt-Gen Sir W. Marshall who commanded 87th Brigade during the campaign wrote that in April he came across the bodies of a missing patrol. All had been taken prisoner and shot in the head. References them as being Royal Fusiliers, although how he decided that they had been taken prisioner is a different matter.

6th East Yorks-similar situation to the 5th Norfolks with D company being cut off and many men being taken prisoner (including Lt-Col Moore, Captain Elliot and Lt Still). On surrendering Moore was baynetted and Elliot shot at. Moore died. Still later wrote of his POW experiences.

The last two references are from Westlakes British Regiments at Gallipoli, whereas the first via a descendent of the survivour.

Jim

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but the thing is it is really not what happen infact only 23 sandrinhams died on that daty it was the 2 groups next to them got a bloody nose.

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Guest Pete Wood
but the thing is it is really not what happen infact only 23 sandrinhams died on that daty it was the 2 groups next to them got a bloody nose.

If the Naval & Military Press website is to believed, even your figure of 25 men is too high.

From the N&MP you can buy the 'War Service Roll of the members of The Royal Households and Estates of the King and Queen.' Their description states:

"Of course the thing of particular interest with this nominal roll is how it matches up with the story of The Vanished Battalion (by Nigel Mcreery), the 1/5th Norfolks at Gallipoli, based on the BBC TV documentary All The King’s Men starring David Jason in the role of Capt Beck, commandng the Sandringham Company, which disappeared during an attack on the Turkish positions on 12 August 1915.

The answer is it doesn’t. In Appendix I and II of the book the Roll of Honour of officers and men for 12 August is given; of the thirteen officers killed only one, Capt Beck, and of the 128 other ranks killed only eight are shown among the members of the Royal Household and Estates.

At a rough count there were 180 Sandringham men out of the 650 listed in the War Service Roll, and they served in various regiments and corps as well as the Navy and RFC - not just the Norfolks.

In fact I could find only fifty who most likely would have been serving in 1/5th Norfolks at Gallipoli in August 1915, and of these the only officer was Beck. This War Service Roll does not feature in the bibliography quoted in The Vanished Battalion. "

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Following is an extract from Rayner, D. 'The Sandringhams at Suvla Bay', in Stand To!. (Journal of the Western Front Association), Reading. April 2000, (Reprinted as a small booklet - 11 pages - and distributed by the Gallipoli Association with the Autumn 2000 issue of 'The Gallipolian').

"Seventy seven names are recorded on the Memorial (without ranks or numbers) [sandringham War Memorial]. Thirty nine belong to the 5th Norfolks and, of these, 21 died during the Gallipoli campaign. 18 of them died at Suvla Bay on 12 August 1915:

Lt A E A Beck MC

Capt F R Beck MVO

Pte W S Bond

Pte L A Bridges

Pte S Carter

Pte E S Cox

Cpl R G Dove

Cpl E Emmerson

Pte E Howell

Pte W J Humphrey

L / Cpl C Hunter

Pte F R J Kerrison

L / Sgt G W Needs

Pte R W Nurse

L / Cpl F E Phillips

Pte R E Ringer

Pte M W Walden

Pte W Walker

Given that Lieutenant A E A Beck, nephew of Captain Frank Beck, was an estate agent, living at Seething, east of Norwich, it is abundantly evident that no regiment, no battalion, no company, not even a platoon of men recruited solely from King George’s Sandringham estates, disappeared into the evening gloom, into a ‘forest’. In fact, total casualties were just one officer and sixteen men, sufficient to form a single section of one platoon."

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The TV play is excellent and a first rate piece of entertainment which I myself have enjoyed,

however it is NOT History!

For the answers to the FAQs then please read Mr. Dick Rayner’s excellent article [as mentioned by Bryn, it was published both in ‘Stand To!’ and in ‘The Gallipolian’]

Regards

Michael D.R.

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  • 9 years later...

As the producer of the film and writer of the book I'm glad you all enjoyed the film. No it wasn't 100% accurate we have to match entertainment with the facts. We tried our best. Yes there were female Turkish snipers, the budget didn't allow for more battalions to be present alas. The idea was to establish a mood and an emotion within the audience. I think we did that. Perhaps people, if nothing else will understand a little what our troops went through. The doc and book were more accurate. Nigel

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I visited Sandringham last autumn and the displays include a small room with exhibits and information about the 1/5th Norfolks and especially the Sandringham men at Suvla.

One corner was a mock-up officer's tent as if at Suvla, with a gold watch lying on the table which certainly seemed to be engraved in the correct style from the King to Capt. Beck...I did wonder if it was the actual item recovered from Turkey after the war?

Clive

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As the producer of the film and writer of the book I'm glad you all enjoyed the film. No it wasn't 100% accurate we have to match entertainment with the facts. We tried our best. Yes there were female Turkish snipers, the budget didn't allow for more battalions to be present alas. The idea was to establish a mood and an emotion within the audience. I think we did that. Perhaps people, if nothing else will understand a little what our troops went through. The doc and book were more accurate. Nigel

It was a very moving and well made film - I do not know of anyone who would not agree.

Congratulations and thanks for making it. :thumbsup:

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Yes there were female Turkish snipers

If you have followed the never ending debate on Turkish female snipers, you will know there has to date, been no direct evidence presented what so ever for their exsistance, apart from third hand accounts of their capture. No body or prisoner was ever noted in a war diary. There is not even one green painted rifle in any collection that I am aware of. So if you have conclusive evidence it would be of great interest.

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As the producer of the film and writer of the book I'm glad you all enjoyed the film. No it wasn't 100% accurate we have to match entertainment with the facts. We tried our best. Yes there were female Turkish snipers, the budget didn't allow for more battalions to be present alas. The idea was to establish a mood and an emotion within the audience. I think we did that. Perhaps people, if nothing else will understand a little what our troops went through. The doc and book were more accurate. Nigel

Thank you Nigel. I saw this film a number of years ago and like many books/films that I would put in the genre of historical fiction I enjoy them because they open the doors to debate and often raises questions with the reader/watcher: How much of this could be true? Could/did any of this happen? And an individual might then decide to follow this up with research to satisfy their curiousity.

I thought it was well made and thoroughly enjoyed it and I can see how it would inspire some to dig and delve for facts - and I think that is no bad thing if we want to preserve the memories of these brave men.

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