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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Who really won the battle of the Somme


uncle bill

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I've got my own thoughts on this but thought I'd throw this one into the arena and sit back and observe.

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Ooh - a killer question, and one I wouldn't like to try and answer. I suppose it comes down to numbers and statistics. These are like people - torture them for long enough and they'll tell you anything.

Tom

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1916 -

The Allies can claim victory, for they broke very good German defences on the Somme, inflicking large losses to the Germans.

The Germans can claim victory, for they stopped the Allies breaking right through, inflicking large losses to the Allies.

So who were the winners - the b****y shell makers and the like back home.

1918 -

The Germans can claim victory, for they pushed the lines back some distances, inflicking large losses to the Allies.

The Allies can claim victory, for they stopped the Germans breaking right through, inflicking large losses to the Germans.

So who were the winners - the b****y shell makers and the like back home.

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I agree with Mark, the war ended we now know because of attrition and starvation and Allies had more men and food. This was not apparent in 1916 but we know it now, that is except for John Mosier and his farcical book, The Myth of the Great War.

He is to be the Saturday night speaker at AGM of US Branch WFA this weekend and I was going to leave early, " Say something nice or don't say anything at all.", you know and I would have to take him on but it looks like Hurricane will wipe the whole thing out, looks like I will not go, scheduled for Quantico Virginia very near the coast.

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I don't agree that the war was won because of attrition and hunger. For me the war was won in the field in the advances made from august until the end. The British people were hungry too.

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Guest Ian Bowbrick
The British people were hungry too.

Yes - BUT not to the extent of the Germans.

To say the War was won on the Battlefield is only half true as there were other factors within Germany that rarely get a mention: the food crises which led to civil unrest being exploited by political extremists such as Rosa Luxemburg & Karl Liebknecht who led the Spartacus League.

A very difficult subject which needs more than an understanding of the fighting.

Cheers - Ian

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As has been suggested, there are a number of reasons for the collapse of Germany in 1918. General war weariness, the prospect of imminent military defeat, food shortages and disillusionment after years of propaganda about the prospect of victory all played there part. The Allies had insisted on the abdication of the Kaiser and the formation of popular government before they would agree to an armistice and a republic was declared on November 9th 1918.

I would disagree however that Luxemburg and Leibknecht exploited the food situation. There had been severe food shortages from mid-1916, a situation exacerbated a poor harvest the same year, leading to periodic food riots. Although the food situation picked up again from mid-1917, it took a disasterous downturn around the middle of the following year. Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Leibknecht spent from May 1916 to October 1918 in prison. It was really only at the point of defeat that revolution broke out and spontaeneously at that. Only then did the left wing of the labour movement in Germany move to try and create conditions which would lead to a socialist revolution.

Terry Reeves

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According to the current "revisionist" thinking in 1916 the Allies won by advancing around 6 miles in 18 weeks. Then in 1918 the Allies won again after the German advance of 40 miles in a fraction of the time. :unsure:

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7 Battalion A.I.F.

Glad to see you got back o.k Paddy. You learn something new every day on this Forum, I had no idea the Aussies were on the Somme before today!! ;) (in joke other members please do not take offence!)

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There is perhaps only one way to answer this one and that is by judging what would have happened had we not fought there or anywhere in 1916.

unfortunaetly that in itself has a further problem in that we will never know and can only guesstimate.

Arm

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Ian

I think the point is, that it was popular disaffection amongst other things that helped bring about the collapse of Germany and not the influence of one particular group or another. Neither Luxemburg, Leibknecht, Jogiches, or Mehring, amongst other leading lights in the movement figure largely in the unrest spreading throughout Germany towards the end of the war. Indeed, in the larger centres of population, where unrest was at its greatest, many Germans looked to the Social Democrats and the USDP for leadership.

The Sparticists really only start to figure in December 1918-January 1919, but as you will know, were swiftly and brutally supressed.

Terry Reeves

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There is perhaps only one way to answer this one and that is by judging what would have happened had we not fought there or anywhere in 1916.

Arm if Aunty had balls she'd be uncle :lol:

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Mr Lines

OK I am wallowing in this ignorance bit. Always tell the grandkids,read it properly 1st time.

Yes made it back ok thank you. Your bits & pieces, plus some additions I got at Fromelles, Poziers etc caused a bit of a stir at Perth. Not from a terrorist aspect, but Customs, Immigration, & Quarantine staff all milling around having a gekko.Final verdict - if the Quarantine chap washed the mud off [for free instead of $30] I could keep it.

See Ya

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I think it's impossible to separate the Battle of the Somme from the context of the Great War as a whole. Ground gained and lost is rather secondary in importance. It seems certain that the German Army was greatly weakened by its efforts in 1916 (both Verdun and the Somme of course) and that the British Army learnt a hard lesson but eventually ended up a vastly more effective fighting force.

It was a major plank in the ultimate victory over Germany but the human cost beggars belief.

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As for the 1916 Somme battles, it’s my opinion the decision goes to the side who learned the most from the lessons the campaign taught.

The Germans learned about the benefits of defense in depth and of counter attacking quickly to regain lost positions and while they came as close to perfecting this system as possible it still wasn’t enough to over come what the British learned from the battle.

The British learned modern combined arms tactics (armor, infantry, artillery & air power working together). Granted it was on an infantile level but the seeds of modern combined arms warfare were sown on the Somme.

The first battle where the lessons learned become evident is at Messines in June 1917. There the British used what they’d learned earlier to achieve a very decisive tactical victory when they, as many of you know:

- Used artillery, with the assistance of observation aircraft, to isolate the battlefield and to disrupt the German counter attack formations as they approached the area.

- Used fighters to gain air superiority over the battlefield

- Used subterranean mines to blast strong points to pieces and stun the front line troops

- Used tanks to break gaps in the wire and to deal with any points of heavy resistance

- Used infantry to do what they do best, close with and destroy the enemy on the personal level.

Admittedly Field Marshal Haig forgot much of this when it came time for his Passchendaelle offensive but the lessons were learned and used effectively again and again in 1918, from in the Allied summer offensives until the end of the war.

All the best,

Jon

P.S. The German 1918 Somme Offensive was clearly an allied victory. They prevented the Germans from effectively exploiting their early successes and were able to stabilize and hold the line. Thus staving off defeat and enabling America to assemble sufficient forces in the theater to turn the tide.

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Guest weebobster

Have to agree with ianw and Somme1916....

....counting real estate/lives as a barometer of success is futile. The battle(s) have to be taken in context of the entire campaign. As such the British senior command appeared to adjust to the modern battlefield quicker that the German Command.

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Just to provide another point for cogitation,

How much effect, do you feel, did the Influenza Epidemic have on the final collapse and defeat of the German Army?

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