Puzzle at Givenchy (La Bassée) Communal Cemetery.

[Hedley Malloch]

Off-topic, but of interest. Something unique for me and a real puzzle.

I visited Givenchy at the weekend. I saw some CWGC headstones in the Communal Cemetery and went to have a look. There were about 30 graves, all Dorsets or Worcesters killed in the last week of May 1940.

All except one. On a headstone of CWGC type, but with two nibs on each shoulder was engraved 'Carpov, Soviet Forces, 3 September 1944'. At the top of the headstone, where one normally expects to find a regimental crest, there was a five-pointed star, one of the old emblems of the Soviet Union.

In 20 years of cemetery visiting in both Western and Eastern Europe I have never seen a member of the Soviet forces in a CWGC plot. But how is he buried so far away from the Eastern Front? What was he doing in north-eastern France? Was he a POW? Forced labour perhaps? But was he a German prisoner - or did he die fighting for the Allies?

Carpov does not appear anywhere in the CWGC database.

A real mystery - something one could write a book around.

In a master touch of ironic splendour Carpov, a horny-handed son of the Russian Revolution (if such he was) is buried next to the 10th Earl of Coventry, a young Lieutenant who died in the retreat to Dunkirk?

Any suggestions?

[Jock Bruce]

Hedley,

I'm guessing, but presumably there was some sort of Soviet liaison mission to the Allied forces?

I've seen Soviet gravestones in Tidworth Military Cemetery but recall them as being non-CWGC.

Jock

[Terry Denham]

CWGC look after a surprising number of Russian (WW1) and Soviet (WW2) graves including those at Tidworth.

Of course, these are not Commonwealth War Graves but are classified as Foreign Nationals in CWGC Care and they form part of the approx. 40,000 foreign graves in the care of the Commission worldwide - from 29 non-Commonwealth nations.

There were all sorts of liaison troops serving with Allied forces but this casualty may not have been one of them as his first name is not known (it does not appear in CWGC records either). If he was in close contact with the allies, I would have expected his full name to have been recorded. Perhaps he was a PoW.

[BeppoSapone]

There is/used to be a WW2 Russian buried with the Commonwealth dead at Monte Cassino.

As I understood it he was a Russian POW who had escaped from the Germans and joined the partisans. He was then "killed in action" somewhere in the vicinity.

I first noticed this grave in September 1960, at which time it stood out like a sore thumb. Everyone else in the cemetery had a CWGC headstone, but this one man has a wooden cross. IIRC it was still the wartime type too ie made from scrap wood with the details painted on, or written in indelible pencil.

I have not noticed the grave on subsequent visits to Cassino. Either it has been moved, or been given a similar type of headstone to everyone else and "blended in".

[Annie]

In 1943, were created by Germans in the North of France 9 Soviet Camps of forced labour ( 4 civilians and 5 soldiers), near coalmines.

Perhaps a forced labour?

Annie

[Frank_East]

The Russian may have been one of the many thousands of Russian POWS who either joined the Wehrmacht voluntary or were forced to into German uniform.

Some deserted as soon as they could and joined the French resistance,died in combat and were given a solder's burial.I noticed one in the WW2 French National Cemetery at St Anne de Auray in Southern Brittany.On his tombstone he carries the usual French inscription."He died for his country."

On the other hand there is a Russian lying in the German Cemetery at Pornichet, La Baule, who died in the service of the Wehrmacht.His German horizontal grave plaque indicates his rank as a HIWI.I take this to be an Auxilliary in the service of the Wehrmacht.

Facing the Allies in Normandy were ex Russian POWs in German front line units while on the Allied side, the Polish contingent, it is said made up their losses by incorporating Polish POWs captured from German units straight into theirs.

In the late summer /early autumn of 1944 several German units behind the lines were incapacitated when Russian Wehrmacht soldiers (sometimes referred to as White Russians) killed their German Officers and deserted to the Maquis.Others, who it was alleged committed atrocities against the French civilian population while in German uniform disappeared after falling into the hands of the Maquis when German resistance collapsed.

The Wehrmacht committed on two fronts simply ran out of manpower with the Eastern Front being a mincemeat machine from the first winter of the conflict. The Wehrmacht became a continual recruiter no matter the ideology of the recruited.

Little wonder some casualties found themselves in strange graves.

Regards

Frank East

[CROONAERT]

This particular Russian was a POW (of the Germans). He is in Groesbeek CWGC Cemetery in Holland.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

...and just for good measure, how about a Jugoslav lying close by...

[gem22]

Hedley

Belgrade cemetery at Namur contains a number of Soviet graves from WW2 and Adinkerke Military cemetery contains a few Russian graves from 1919 as well as British from both wars and Czech from WW2.

Garth

[Hedley Malloch]

Thanks to everyone, both for the very informed comment and the photos. I never expected to find Soviet war graves this far west.

After reading through this thread I think Carpov must have been a POW doing forced labour; we would have known more about him if he had been attached to Allied forces. I wonder if he was alone? Forced labour implies large numbers. I wonder what happened to the rest? It is unlikely that he was the only casualty.

[CROONAERT]

Thanks to everyone, both for the very informed comment and the photos. I never expected to find Soviet war graves this far west.

After reading through this thread I think Carpov must have been a POW doing forced labour; we would have known more about him if he had been attached to Allied forces. I wonder if he was alone? Forced labour implies large numbers. I wonder what happened to the rest? It is unlikely that he was the only casualty.

Hedley,

This is just a thought. Givenchy (if it's the same Givenchy that I'm thinking it is),in September 1944 ,was in Allied hands. Your Soviet (possibly a forced labourer) could have died while being treated in a hospital , after being liberated, and was the only one in the area to do so at this time. This, I believe was the case with "my" Soviet in Groesbeek who (I'm not too well up on Russian cyrillics) died in August 1945, after the war had ended. My "Groesbeek Soviet" is a lone grave also.

dave.