Modern Great War interest

[uncle bill]

I've just finished Denis Winter's book, Death's Men. Whilst we can all draw our own conclusions on this book I was struck by something towards the end. He mentions visitors to the cemetery at Delville Wood, " still visited by small groups." This was in 1973 and he says that 170 visitors signed the register. This seems so strange in today's light and incessant coaches that arrive at this popular site. He also mentions picking up rusted helmets at La Boisselle, today you could get a coach load of tourists fighting over a shrapnel ball. All this leads me to the question, why the upsurge in battlefield visitors? I myself am a relative newcomer, my first trip to the Somme was in 98 and a turning point in my life. The changes noticed since are incredible. I remember when you could wander about Newfoundland Park without fear of electrocution or without a megaphone calling you to rights ( although the latter now has to fight with the sound of helicopters.) Where is all this leading to ?

I'd like it if people could talk about the Somme or the Salient in the seventies or even the eighties. How do you feel about the newcomers that tramp the fields that were so quiet in the last few decades. ?

ps sorry if this thread has already been talked about

[Muerrisch]

Less than happy for my sake, happy for theirs.

[Mark Hone]

This topic has been touched upon in the past. I have very mixed feelings about it. In many ways I am delighted that there is such a burgeoning of interest in the subject, safeguarding the future of the CWGC cemeteries for example. On the other hand I am concerned that much of what I, and many others, love about eg The Ypres Salient will be swept away in the name of mass tourism. I think it is an ambivalent feeling akin to that felt by the late Alf Wainwright who did so much to popularise the Lake District and Pennine Way and in the process took away the sense of remoteness and solitude that had attracted him in the first place. But what right do a small cadre of enthusiasts have for keeping out the masses from their private domain?

The numbers of visitors has increased dramatically since I started visiting in the 1980's. Then the British tourists were nearly all military buffs ('Headbangers' as I sometimes affectionately describe them), usually men. There are now huge numbers of family parties. Subjectively, I would say that the biggest increase has come within the last five or six years. My wife, who first visited the Salient in 2000, says she has noticed a progressive and significant increase in visitor numbers on every occasion-and we go at roughly the same time each year. The number of school parties visiting at October half-term has blossomed in the same period. The traffic in Ieper itself is far busier in the Summer in my view even in the last two years.

[Alan Lines]

The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. There are still plenty of other WW1 battlefields that you can see that are quite seldom visited.

[ianw]

I think there are still plenty of times of the year when you can wander alone and plenty of out of the way places which you can have to yourself even at peak times.

Perhaps it will be good news since it will cause us "cognescenti" to venture further afield but also improve tourist support facilities to our advantage.

[MartinWills]

To go back to the question of why, I can't claim to provide all the answers but amongst them must be the following factors:

Martin Middlebrooks volume "The First Day on the Somme"

The growing interest in genealogy and the increasing ease with which WW1 casualties are traced (eg CWGC website)

Publicity given to surviving veterans.

Nemerous television series (eg Richard Holmes)

The incresing importance of WW1 on the schools history syllabus

Those of us who spread the word and talk about the Great War, not least on this site.

There are other reasons as well.

All in all it is positive thing that truly "Their name liveth for evermore".

Martin

[Chris_Baker]

And to that I would add 'ease of travel'. In some ways I think it is a bit of a shame that it is so easy to travel now. It used to be a real adventure to cross the Channel, and now it's as routine as catching a bus.

The increased visitor traffic is easily avoided, if you are minded to do so. You won't see too many battlefield tourists outside the popular spots on the Somme and at Wipers. Try the Loos battlefield, or Arras, or Neuve Chapelle, or Saint Quentin, or ... it's a rarity to see a Brit in many of these places.

[armourersergeant]

Having never been to a battlefield i guess i can try to answer the original question from a different angle.

Until i came to this forum i had no interest in visiting a battlefield. I had been studying the topic of WW1 for nigh on twenty years(not in great depth) but of late had moved to other eras. This forum brought me back with a thump and its like life blood to me at the moment.

I guess if someone who visits a battlefield gets a shot in the arm that incourages them to take an interest in the subject it can only be for the good. Though i have an image of gangs of peole tramping over the fields laughing and so on and this does not fit with the almost honoury pilgrimages that i envisage many of the Pals taking.

But then I guess many of those who died would be glad to hear the sound of laughter around them and know that not all was invain.

In some respects I would hate for it to become a commercialised touristy attraction, but all have the right to visit and hopefully it will touch them in the right way and leave an impression.

Lest we forget, if we do we run the danger of it happening again.

Arm.

[Tim Birch]

To add to Martin's list:-

Cheap Day Returns on the ferries and the opening of the Channel Tunnel

I hate to say it, but I have detected a certain amount of ghoulishness amongst some (possibly many) who show an interest in the Great War. Almost the first reaction of anyone who you tell that you are interested is a reference to the casualties and horror of it. The questions of tactics or the fact that grandad talked about living it up with his mates behind the lines is rarely mentioned.

Verdun, The Somme (1916) , Vimy and Ypres are the magnets for visitors, and it is the largest of the cemeteries which attract the greatest number of visitors. The numbers are horrific, but as humans we cannot deny that death holds a powerful fascination for us, particularly when it involves others in large numbers.

I suspect that there is a similar attraction to the battlefields which causes people to slow down and stare at a traffic accident. If we are honest with ourselves how many of us would stop what we were doing and watch a replay of the events of 9/11 if it suddenly appeared on our TV screen? Why did we sit glued to our TV screens during the Afghanan and Iraq Wars? It might have been wrapped up in political or moral interest, but in reality when we watched the fireballs erupting in Baghdad every night, or B52's carpet bombing the Taliban we knew it was not a firework display, but the deaths of other people we were watching, yet there was a teriible fascination with it.

It is probably a normal and healthy human reaction, a feeling of near miss? There but for what some would call "the grace of God" go I? When I visit the Western Front I feel a great sense of relief that I wasn't born in about 1895.

Tim

[Mark A]

Know what you mean Tim about the 1895 thing! I often think along those lines when I'm there.

I returned to the Somme after a long break last year and I was amazed at the amount of visitors, cars and coaches- especially around the popular sites. Like Mark Honne, I've got mixed feelings. On the one hand really glad that people are interested but on the other (selfishly) sad that places like Beaumont Hamel had been packaged up and somehow neutered with the fences and designated paths. Then again I can see why it's necessary. But anyway, I think the majority of places on the Somme are as quiet and peaceful as ever.

[uncle bill]

Going back to those years when visitors hardly ever went it remains a source of amazement to me that the CWGC never lost sight of its mission.

[Paul Reed]

Being one who has seen the battlefields both quiet and busy, I personally prefer the latter. Many of the vets I knew went to the grave believing no-one would remember them or their comrades, and many of the people I regularly encounter on coach tours have wanted to come for years, but have not been able to afford it until the mass holiday market suddenly sat up and realised people wanted to see battlefields. Would we really want to deny these people a chance to come over?

I can also see how aspects of the commerical side of the battlefields have reacted to the large number of visitors, and I am less than happy with some of that, but slowly many of those concerned are finding a happy medium so that these sites retain their dignity.

Those who want to have the vast expanse of the Western Front to themselves are dinosaurs quite frankly, and in my opinion not faithful to the memory of those who fought and died... as Uncle Bill suggest, we should all marvel at CWGC. And has someone has also mentioned there are many places to find solitude, if you care to look.

[munce]

I think I largely agree with Paul's comments above, especially the detail about still being able to find solitude. Earlier this year, on a warm and sunny July afternoon I took a walk around the Thiepval area where the 36th Div attacked on 1st July. My friend and I (his g-uncle was wounded there) took the tracks and roads from in front of Thiepval Wood up and around to where the Schwaben Redoubt stood, and down again past Mill Road Cemetery. The walk took us an hour or so, and we didn't encounter a single other battlefield tourist. There were a couple of cars parked outside the Ulster tower, and a couple more UK-plated ones drove past, but I was amazed at the lack of visitors to be seen at what I imagined must be one of the most popular sites on the Western Front.

Similarly exploring the Cambrai and Loos areas, we rarely encountered other tourists, if at all on the actual ground. Perhaps our experience was unusual, but the impression I got was that if you're prepared to stretch your legs a bit and explore, you'll very likely find yourself alone.

[Mark Hone]

Having said that Ieper is getting very crowded I agree that a little bit off the tourist circuit (Tyne Cot, Sanctuary Wood, Essex Farm etc) you hardly ever see another British visitor. I remember complaining on another thread that it was a pity that many people never ventured beyond a very limited range of sites, so I can't have it both ways!

[David_Blanchard]

Following on from what Armourer said about laughter in the graveyards and the comments about Newfoundland Park, I was taken back to a visit I paid to the Somme as a recce for a school visit, about 10 years ago- before all the changes

One of my colleagues in the English department, Mike was with me and a friend, Pete from the History department. We made our way to the top of the Caribou memorial. As we surveyed the battlefield, the danger tree, the German frontline etc, Mike looked out and said:

'Hmm, aah, this must have been a terrific vantage point for the Newfoundlanders during the battle.'

Pete replied:

'Certainly Mike, but perhaps a little disconcerting when the Newfoundlanders who were attacking found that their names were already on the plinth at the bottom of the memorial!'

[john w.]

Recently I followed a route as laid out in Unquiet Graves and being in the Ypres area I actually found very few people...

At places like Tyne Cot well you would expect visitors,

The fact that you never seem alone on the battlefield is as Paul says a mark of respect to those who fought there.

Earlier this year I was at Waterloo and even there there were plenty of people. It may not just be WW1 sites but others that tourists go to. The are better informed, travel is easier, and those who provide the service do so in a professional manner.

John

[ianw]

It seems that on TV at least , "History is the new D.I.Y". Wall to wall history programmes of generally good quality and a new Channel 4 History of the Great War starting soon. Personally , I think this is very good news - not the least because I like visiting the battlefields considerably more than attempting D.I.Y !

[Mike Steele]

As said before if you want peace and quiet than all you have to do is to leave the beaten track. Even on such a day as July 1st this year, when you would be expecting the Somme to be heaving, I managed to find a few places where mine was the only car around. Even such placea as Devonshire cemetary and Serre were entirely deserted.

I have to say that it was quite amusing to watch coach after coach heading towards Sanctuary Wood when I had the rest of the Hooge Crater area entirely to myself earlier this year !!!

[Hedley Malloch]

To add to the other points explaining a growth in interest:

First, there has been an increase in interest in related activitities such as family and local history. These have a WW1 dimension.

Second, the falling cost of foreign travel. 40 years ago it was a major effort to go to France. Now the Front is much more accessible to a mass market. Consider that this year, during the summer months, it was just about possible to board an early morning Eurostar from Waterloo, go to Lille, catch a train to Albert, do a five mile circular walk, and make the return trip to London arriving before midnight. Later this month another 20 minutes come off the journey time between London and France.

Third, technical changes have made the subject more accessible to a mass market. On-line access to the PRO, CWGC, sites like this have created a ready supply of information to anyone with a phone line and a computer.

Eventually one reaches a point where, in economists' words, supply creates its own demand. Because something is there, readily available and cheap then people will want to use it. Rather like your mobile phone. You didn't know you needed that in 1985, did you?

The really interesting question is: can growing interest be sustained? How can this big audience be tempted back to Ypres - for the third time?

[john w.]

Hedley

it may only be the die hards who go....

John

[Hedley Malloch]

it may only be the die hards who go....

John,

It is a really interesting question. It all depends on how the Western Front is (I use a terrible word, but there is really no alternative) 'marketed' or positioned.

At the moment it is positioned in the memory segment of the market. But is there a sustainable long-term future there? Would there not be a better future if an attempt was made to develop a theme which has wider appeal - such as peace? I spent some time this summer in German cemeteries. One could not fail to be impressed by by the considerable efforts made by the German equivalent of the CWGC to develop the peace angle to their work. The results were large-scale hands-on involvement of young people in their work and opening of new cemeteries in Eastern Europe - both signs of a successful and growing enterprise.

Food for thought?

[Neil Mackenzie]

As everyone has already identified there are a number of factors that have contributed to the growth in interest in the Great War and, consequently, visitors to the main sites:-

- Easier travel to Belgium & France.

- Internet access providing information not previously available - such as

CWGC and the Forum (of course).

-Changes to the educational syllabus in the UK. I personally feel this is a

great area for education. The amount of information available. The number of

(often conflicting) information sources. The scope for doing some real

investigative/detective work. The scope to personalise the learning to make it

relevant for the student. The range of topics that can be covered, not all of a

totally military nature (e.g. impact of the War on the role of women in society).

- More free time and higher disposable incomes – especially for the more senior

amongst us who remember talking to relatives with a direct connection to this

period.

- The growth of organized tours to meet the need created by all of the above.

While many go to the same places, using specialist guides (Paul, Clive and

others) or organizing yourself, still means you can still go to areas around Ieper

and the Somme without feeling you are part of a crowd.

- The now almost universal nature of the English language which means people

like me feel totally comfortable going to France and Belgium in the first place.

Neil