GSMedal with NW Persia clasp

[Chris Caul]

Can anyone give me information about the award of the GS medal with NW Persia clasp please?

(I have another post on the Soldiers forum titled 'York and Lanc regt' that goes into more detail about why I'm interested)

Thanks,

Chris.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Chris

The GSM (1918-62) was awarded with NW PERSIA CLASP for services between 10 August 1920 and 31 December 1920 in that area. British and Indian forces were engaged in occupation duties as Mesopotamia was transformed in to Iraq.

This clasp was awarded to members of Noperforce (North Persia Force) and those on various lines of communications serving under Brigadier-General H.F. Bateman-Champain.

2 Y&L may have been involved - as I am at work I cannot confirm this. I will check when I get home and post my findings on forum.

Dave

[Guest Hill 60]

Just to add to Dave's post.

N. W. Persia:

10th August - 31st December 1920.

This bar was awarded to members of Noperforce (North Persia Force) and those on the lines of communications, under Brigadier-General H. F. Bateman-Champian CMG, which consisted of the 36th (Indian) Mixed Brigade.

A Battery RHA; 19 Company 3 Sappers & Miners; Royal Northumberland Fusiliers; 1 Royal Berks; 2 Yorks & Lancs; 1 Royal Irish Fusiliers; 1/42 Deoli Regt; 1/67 Punjabis; 122 Rajputana Infantry; 1/2 Gurkhas; 48th Division Signals.

Lines of Communications Troops:

Guides Cavalry; 2/26 Punjabis; 64 Pioneers; 79 Carnatic Infantry; 7, 52, 65 Companies Sappers & Miners.

RAF: 6, 30, 63 Squadrons.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Cheers Lee - saved me annoying her indoors by looking this up when shes in full flow on whats not happened in her office today!!!

[Guest Hill 60]

oooh, political AND dangerous talk there Dave , you be careful!!!

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Lee

My beloved wife and I have a very good working relationship she refers to me as darling when Im around and the old g*t when I'm not.

When I met her she was quiet and demur and wouldn't so boo to a goose.....Ive gone wrong somewhere.....But I wouldn't change her for the world................................

Dave

[Guest Hill 60]

saved me annoying her indoors by looking this up when shes in full flow on whats not happened in her office today!!!

I must be fortunate that Jean worships the ground I walk on and also has an interest in the Great War.

Yes, worships the ground I walk on and will do anything to make my life sooooo comfortable

[Chris Caul]

Dave and Lee,

thanks very much for the very quick and informative replies. Once again this forum has impressed me. I can now write to the Army Personnel Centre to try and find out if this person really is my great grandad, because it is beginning to look that way.

I've been trying to find his records for about a year now on and off. I took my wife with me to PRO the other day (we had a day in London) and she very irritatingly found her gt grandad in about 15 minutes, then smugly sat back after she had printed it all off while I spent hours getting nowhere! At least she understands why I'm so interested in the research now though; before, she just used to humour me.

Chris

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Lee

Seriously June is a peach she is very supportive of my interest and being an artist often gives me 'artists impression' drawings which show far more than a camera picks out where memorials are worn.

We are currently working on book about the military memorials in our local church yard - many of which appear blank on photos - she is bringing them to life with her drawings.

Dave

[Guest Hill 60]

Chris - Glad to have been of some help.

Dave - You have a good woman there!

Jean & I have only been together for just over a couple of years, and when we met she had no interest in WWI (or any war). Now she is interested in all the Cyclist Units, the RFA, RGA & RHA, has a collection of over 150 sweetheart brooches, collects cap badges AND nearly has more medals than me!

Her idea of a good day out is touring cemeteries, looking for WWI related graves....no wonder I fell in love

[Chris Woods]

Season's Greetings,

I have just been directed to your recent enquires about the N.W. Persia clasp to the G.S. Medal, and noted reference to Brigadier-General H.F. Bateman-Champain.

My uncle served with Norperforce until 1920 (Lieutenant - Indian Army Supply Corps) and I am gradually building up a few bits of information about this little 'operation' for my notes on his long military career, however, there are some gaps and inconsistancies, including my notes on Brigadier-General H.F. Bateman-Champain. I hope you might be able to sort out one or two problems I have sorting, out my shambolic notes about NORPERFORCE (which are in WORD format should they be of interest to anyone).

I have, from several sources including Moberly's 'Operations in Persia 1914-19' , a Maj-Gen W. M. Thomson as the first Commanding Officer of Norperforce.

From Maj. Gen. Sir. Edmund Ironside's biography, I have a Brigadier (elsewhere referred to as a Maj. Gen.) H. M. Champain being retired from NORPERFORCE in August 1920 after failing to make a stand against the Bolsheviks at Enzeli and Rasht - although Champain claimed to have received no instructions on this matter in answer to his requests, and wished to avoid a political situation. I gather he was then retired. He was replaced by Ironside in September 1920

After one or two small actions, Ironside was in December 1920 instructed to withdraw Norperforce back to Mesopotamia within 4 months. Severe winter conditions delaid operations and on 14th. Feb., during the preparations, Ironside was ordered to Baghdad for onward transfer, and replaced by Maj. Gen Sir George Cory, who completed the withdrawal (and then presummably disbandment) of Norperforce into Mesopotamia in April 1921, shortly after the snows had cleared, and leaving their smallarms, artillery, ammunitions and draft animals to the Persian Cossack Brigade under Rezt Khan who .....

My principle question is when did Thomson hand over command of NORPERFORCE to Champain, and any reference to Champain during his period of command.

I would also be grateful for any information about the brief command of NORPERFORCE by Sir G. Cory.

To flesh out my notes, I would also very much like to find out more about any operations in which NORPERFORCE were involved before the Bolshevik landing at Enzeli in the early summer of 1920.

As a retired mariner I have little knowledge of things military. Should you be able to offer any assistance in these matters, I would be most grateful, and also more than happy to share my shambolic accummulated notes, and timeline spreadsheet.

Regards,

Chris Woods

[Michael Johnson]

Entitlement to the GSM should show on the Medal Index Card, but be careful since there mightbe a separate card for the GSM. The examples I looked at all showed the new numbering series 4736*** block for the Y & L.

[andrew moberly]

Chris Woods are you still looking for info on Norperforce? My grandfather served with them, I could look out relevant parts of his diaries? Andrew Moberly.

[MaureenE]

Chris Woods wrote an account which was added to the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce in 2010.

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Norperforce

Cheers

Maureen

[Chris Woods]

Good day Andrew

many thanks for your submission in 2015 and my apologies for my late reply.

 

I would indeed very much appreciate any information from your grandfather’s diary,

a very generous offer and if it drifts away from the title of this topic you are welcome to contact me direct c.woods45@btinternet.com

In particular I am interested about the people of Norperforce, anything about its supply activities and the Indian Army Supply & Transport Corps (later, the R.I.A.S.C.) so I can understand better my uncle’s duties etc.  He only left me a brief c.v. of his career, including the single lines ‘Dunsterforce’ and ‘Norperforce’ 

For anyone interested in my amateur article on Norperforce, others have contributed to it since first published by FIBIS

and here is my uncle’s clasp

Chris

 

[DavidOwen]

Chris it may be an idea to send Andrew a PM as he isn't following this at present and hasn't logged on for a few months. Click on his user name and select the envelope icon (message). Once you send the message he should receive an email alerting him to your message.

[Chris Woods]

Thanks David,

will try,

Chris

[andrew moberly]

Hi Chris - I attach extracts from the memoirs written by my grandfather Capt Hugh de Lisle Penfold for the benefit of his grandchildren in about 1974.    These extracts (some of which are quite indiscreet) cover the period 1919 to 1921 when he was part of Norperforce.      I realise that his description of a reconnaissance to Bader-i-gaz and over the Elburz Mountains took place exactly 100 years ago this week, at the very beginning of April 1920.

 

Prior to joining Norperforce as Staff Captain in early 1919 my grandfather had spent 2 1/2 years in Mesopotamia with the 2nd Battn 9th Gurkhas.      He resigned his commission in 1926.    I believe his scrapbook / photo-album / other papers from this era are now held at the National Army Museum in London (including a section of canvas cut from a crashed biplane) - and it occurs to me there may already be a copy of his memoirs there too.     So perhaps none of the attached is new!     

Extracts on Norperforce 1919-21 from Capt H de L Penfold memoirs written in the 1970s.pdf

[MaureenE]

12 hours ago, andrew moberly said:

I attach extracts from the memoirs written by my grandfather Capt Hugh de Lisle Penfold   

 

I believe his scrapbook / photo-album / other papers from this era are now held at the National Army Museum in London (including a section of canvas cut from a crashed biplane) - and it occurs to me there may already be a copy of his memoirs there too.     So perhaps none of the attached is new!     

Extracts on Norperforce 1919-21 from Capt H de L Penfold memoirs written in the 1970s.pdf 251.24 kB · 2 downloads

Thank you for posting Andrew

 

I looked in the catalogue for the National Army Museum Collection, using search terms Hugh de Lisle Penfold,  de Lisle Penfold, and Penfold, but there were no results.

 

Provided you are not thinking of publishing a book, could you consider uploading a copy of your grandfather's memoir to the Internet Archive (Archive.org) in terms of a previous GWF topic  I wrote "Upload your transcriptions to Archive.org (Internet Archive)"

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/230450-upload-your-transcriptions-to-archiveorg-internet-archive/?tab=comments#comment-2292808

 

I believe that it is important that memoirs should be preserved, especially when someone took part in a campaign which is not well documented, and the Internet Archive appears to offer long term storage of digital items, as good as  can be currently found.

 

Alternatively if you did not want to upload to the Internet Archive, perhaps you would consider offering the memoir file to FIBIS, Families in British India Society. I do volunteer work for the FIBIS Fibiwiki, but I think the best place for a memoir is the FIBIS Database, in a category Personal Papers, see the Database https://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/

( If you look at the Browse Records section on the left hand side of the website, there is a category Personal Papers)

 

However, I have no direct connection with the FIBIS database, and you would need to contact  the Website and Social Media Manager Valmay Young, whose email is provided in this link https://www.fibis.org/contact/

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

[andrew moberly]

Maureen - I would be happy to share relevant parts of Capt Penfold's memoirs as you suggest.        Meanwhile I have looked back at my old papers and found the attached from the NAM records - do these help at all?      I know there has been a big revamp at the NAM since 2006....       

[MaureenE]

Thanks Andrew.

 

Perhaps the search in the National Army Museum website was not working properly previously, or I wad doing something wrong, but this time I found three catalogue references:

 

Collection of papers of Capt Hugh de Lisle Penfold, 2nd 9th Gurkha Rifles 1914-1916; associated with World War One, Mesopotamia (1914-1918). Archives 1978-08-94

 

Photograph album of 213 photographs compiled by H de L Penfold, 2nd Bn, 9th Gurkha Rifles, 1916-1919; associated with World War One, Mesopotamia (1914-1918). Photographs 1978-10-91

 

Photograph album of 169 photographs compiled by H de L Penfold, 2nd Bn 9th Gurkha Rifles, North Persia, 1919-1921; associated with 9th Gurkha Rifles, the Russian Army, Persian Forces, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles and 14th (King's) Hussars; showing views of Persia, HQ staff 'Norperforce', Colonel and Staff of Deniken's Turkoman Cossacks, the Persian Army in bivouac, Turkoman Cossacks entering Shahrud, Persian Cossack Artillery, portraits and aircraft. (Album dimensions: 24 x 39 x 2.5 cm). Photographs 1978-10-92

 

Such a pity that all the detail which was previously available for the first catalogue entry appears  not to have been carried over to the new catalogue, for the benefit of researchers. I could not see any way to expand the entry.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[david murdoch]

Looking on the GSM medal roll shows the clasps for Iraq, Kurdistan, South Persia and North West Persia, and these rolls generally note the soldiers actual unit which is very useful.

I have several NW Persia to Tank Corps men - actually these are to No1. Armoured Car Company and has in brackets the former MGC(M) unit. They were issued for the period the Tank Corps were taking over the armoured cars - 15th L.AM.B was part of Norperforce. Also a number of these men do not have any war service medals as they were replacements coming out from UK to replace "the 1915 men" ie the original MGC(M) crews. The L.A.M.B Brigade war diary runs until November 1920 and shows 15th L.A.M.B as still being under their control and in Kasvin 29/11/1920.

Edited 4 April , 2020 by david murdoch